I can't understand why anyone uses them, if you want to cut down current add more cells. i can't possible see how adj the freq. and pluse width duty cycle does anything Please prove me wrong.
Gary diamond
Printable View
I can't understand why anyone uses them, if you want to cut down current add more cells. i can't possible see how adj the freq. and pluse width duty cycle does anything Please prove me wrong.
Gary diamond
Gary,
A PWM comes into its own when you forgo the "two tsps of KOH for the amps I want to pull once its warmed up" and you use a maximum concentration electrolyte, use the PWM to control amp draw and increase the efficiency of your cell due to the lower resistance in it.
I increased my MMW by a whole point with a PWM on my last cell.
If you say so, if the resistance is to low add another cell set, if your KOH is to strong cut it down, it just seems to me to be a fix for something broken, that should not be broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Painless
Gary Diamond
You're still missing the point, Gary.
Let me explain this a different way.
If you use a 28% KOH solution, the resistance per cell gap will be X. If you use a much weaker solution, your resistance per cell gap will be Y.
Y is a higher resistance than X, therefore, when Z amps are put through the two different setups, X will produce more HHO at the Z amps than the non-pwm setup, due to the lower resistance.
Another benefit is cell warming. Let's say your target draw is 20 amps, you might add two tsps KOH to achieve this (for example). When your cell is cold it may draw 10 amps and move up to your 20 target as it warms. With a PWM you are running at your target amps from cold to hot. In other words, your required LPM is there from cold start.
In a small output setup, a PWM may be overkill. But, in a setup where high output is required, the benefit of a) hitting your needed LPM out of the gate and b) achieving that LPM with less amp draw is welcomed.
Ok I will agree with you if your set up starts to run away on heat, it would be good to limit current flow.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I also feel if the HHO generator is designed correct, and placed in the front with cooling fins, there would not be any need to add a device to fix a problem that should not be there in the first place.
I agree 100%, a PWM shouldn't be used as a band aid for bad cell design. It should be used for higher efficiency and consistant amp draw from startup to shutdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
I hope I got this right...
So if you start out the system w/a PWM running at 20 amps, it will not only give the 20 amps production from the start (no warm-up needed), but the higher strength electrolite offers greater production due to the lower resistance of its solution. Sounds like the maximum strength solution is the way to go.
Who's got the economical PWM's for sale?
Also, I believe this concentration (28%) is good for temperatures down below 20 degrees. Lower temperature's require alcohol addition, what affect would this have?
bigjim56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
I think your core question is, "will a PWM make more gas than without a PWM" ... the simple answer is no, it will not ...
however, in operation, we find that these devices tend to ramp up production as they warm up and can if not controlled, pull more power than is available which causes problems and blown fuses and such ...
you are correct that if your design is very precise, and you elyte concentration is very precise, you can control your device without the use of a PWM ... but doing this is a pain in the butt ... so the PWM gives average Joe an easy way to "dial in" a desired level of performance without having to be so precise with the other factors ...
as a real world example, I am running small engine tests using a cheap little Chinese 1500w gas powered generator ... I am so close to getting the darn thing to self sustain that I decided I wanted to give it go even though I knew going in that I was a little shy of the mark ... having the PWM let me tweak my electrolyzer to a very precise setting so it not try to pull more juice than the little generator could put out but grabbed every bit of what it was capable of ... only with PWM could I control it that fine where I got every freakin' watt of power I could out of that little genny without popping its breakers ...
did that help to explain it for you ?
SSC,Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartScarecrow
Are you attempting to run the small engine entirely on hho or are you supplementing the gas?
If you are shooting for 100% hho, why?
BoyntonStu
100% HHO .. runs fine ... been doing it since late last year ... so far, no damage to the cheap Chinese engine ... I am still not doing it well ... my delivery system needs much improvement ... and there are modifications to the piston engine I need to try to see what works best ... so far, have tried a milled down head to increase compression ratio to 13:1 and various timing and ignition mods ... I have also documented the volumes of HHO required to run the engine under various loads ... its all just pure research and data acquisition ... the understanding is goal enough for me ...Quote:
Originally Posted by BoyntonStu
EDIT: duh, should have said late in 2007, not last year ... its already next year ... and actually, I was running a little B&S 2.5 hp engine on HHO 5 years ago ... so this is nothing that new or exciting ... folks been tinkering with this for quite a while ... a lot of people are doing it now ...
I love it, KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK, any videos??Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartScarecrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
yeah, I have published quite a few videos of how to do it on YouTube ... the latest is a sequence of 9 videos I shot while an EBN co-worker was in town visiting with me for 10 days ... during that 10 day period we ran about every test we could think of and gave a pretty complete presentation on our findings ... its a very long and sometimes boring series of videos, but it gives a pretty clear picture of what we learned over nearly 2 man years of pure research into how to run an engine on 100% HHO ... dont get me wrong, we still have a lot of work to do ... took Detroit 100 years to get us our gas burners to the point they are now ... we are trying to compress that into just a hand full of man years ...
this is my YouTube channel ... http://www.youtube.com/user/SmartScarecrow ... the videos are pretty well organized ... you will want to look at the generator project videos and the d3/scarecrow collaboration videos ... get some pop corn and sodas ... think its a couple hours worth if I recall ...
SSC,
I don't understand why testing an engine running on hho would benefit those who wish to use hho to improve gas burning.
For example; what percentage of hho is necessary?
What timing adjustment would be best?
What can be done with the ECU?
Etc.
How can running a 2.5 hp engine on pure hho help with the above?
BoyntonStu
Well for one Stu, its never been done as far as i know, that alone makes it worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoyntonStu
We can learn how a engine needs to be set up for HHO compared to Gas, that data may or may not be usefull, but I for one would love to see the data.
And for a twist what would happen with a small amount of gas added?
Right now everyone is just guessing how much HHO should be needed for a certain size engine, perhaps this can clear the air
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
you are correct ... however, use of HHO as a fuel economy booster in automobiles is only one small area that has gotten all the attention ... there are so many folks working on automotive implementations that someone has to work on the other angles ... my interests are in other areas ... but much of what I am learning has application ... or so I am told by the EBN R&D staff ...
I can tell you that with a 100cc engine, with very poor control over the method used to get the gas into the combustion chamber, I can run the engine at idle speed, about 1000rpm, with about 3.5 lpm of gas ... to get the engine to operate at full speed, about 3500 rpm, required about 9 lpm of gas ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
now we were probably loosing about 20-25% of our HHO via blow by right past the rings or back out the intake ... there is no way all of it was getting where it was supposed to go ... so we need much better control over our method of getting the fuel into the engine and metering its volume ... this is something I am working on ...
SmartScarecrow Quote:
now we were probably loosing about 20-25% of our HHO via blow by right past the rings or back out the intake ... there is no way all of it was getting where it was supposed to go ... so we need much better control over our method of getting the fuel into the engine and metering its volume ... this is something I am working on ...
bigjim56:
Fuel injection for HHO. Thats what we want. Everything comes in steps. Where we were once working on FI for cars w/gasoline, now we're working on FI for the gas (literally). Send the gas to a expansion vessel, there it gets metered out, a resident pressure relief valve protects from overpressure and exhausts excessive pressure either to atmosphere or a secondary expansion tank. Maybe the PWM can be wired to slack off when the demand is low....hmmmm
Lots to think about..
bigjim56
What about running the HHO under pressure to inject it into the cylinder.
My understanding is that some people have been experimenting with around 40 PSI with excellent results.
Hi all
I've just watched the 9 youtube video's of SmartScarecrow with Dp making a 2.5 gen run off HHO only.
Great work guys And I think you have helped me with issues in y head regarding running a standard piston engine (as we know the basic engine design was engineered to run off petrol, Gas or diesel). Your compression tests was really well explained and i feel this may have a knock on effect as in the question could be "Are we really achieving anything running this basic engine design with a few modifications on HHO? Which could lead onto "may be we should be looking at designing a more efficient, higher compression engine to run on HHO?"
If you look at all the hundreds of youtube videos of new engine design I am sure we could design a type of engine to run solely off HHO. My personal feelings are designing a high compression radial engine i.e. the rotary Wankel engine mass produced by Mazda. But there are a lot of other designs out there.
My second thoughts, the exhaust fumes from the generator had some bizarre effects with your LCD's on measuring equipment. Could we try using this to our advantage i.e. porting part of it back into the engine as there seems to be some sort of energy in this gas? Or create some sort of turbine to help generate rotary motion? The possibilities are endless.........
Just my thoughts
Gareth
This little chat about the PWM has cleared up the mist that surrounded the use of. I am now toatally convinced to the use of the Pulse Width Modulator & the need to have one. I have a 3.2 V6 Honda which in the UK is a rather large engine & currently building & trying to perfect a Dry Cell. If anybody has got anything useful to say in helping me I would be very greatful. Thnx Guys E "!" :D
wcorless - HHO under pressure is a hydrogen bomb!
..
Hydrogen by itself is not that inherently dangerous. But add oxygen to hydrogen in any concentration above 4% Hydrogen and you have a highly volatile and unstable gas mixture. It is the oxygen in the air that makes hydrogen gas unstable (ever sit and watch a violent thunderstorm?).
..
The secret to HHO as a motor fuel is in volume production in-place and the ability to meter production as demand calls for it.
..
Since 2006 two Geo Metro cars have been operating on HHO in Tuscon Arizona with little or no major issues. But they have never run with absolutely no problems. There is a definite difference between the engines running on HHO, the engines running of Compressed Hydrogen Gas, and the engines running on regular gasoline. The best results are with compressed hydrogen gas. HHO comes in third (behind gasoline).
..
Fuel injection is a simple remedy. But Hydrogen Fuel Injectors are expensive. LPG is a common motor fuel now, and there are a lot of LPG fuel injectors on the market. But the difference between LPG and HHO is like water and maple syrup (totally different). Hydrogen is number one on the periodic table (which means it is the smallest and lightest molecule). Hydrogen lines leak, and sealing them is a task by itself.
...
Solve these issues and you are step two of ten towards HHO as a motor fuel.
...
dataman19
To undertand more about a pwm you should consider reading this http://www.hhogaskitwizard.com/blog/what-is-a-hho-pwm/Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
I’m a self-taught (the education you get in a college these days isn’t equal to that of a good highs school when I was growing up) mathematician and engineer, an ardent physicist, and I’ve been building HHO boosters since 1972 (when the gasoline stations were all closed one morning – the start of phony economic maneuvering intended to raise gasoline prices to four dollars, get more control to the ocean and the planet while doing the same thing to congress, etc, etc, etc,).
I did some more tinkering in the early eighties, that along with designing a farm to run entirely on animal waste, build a Tesla Turbine, experiment with solar furnaces, and a bunch more. In the last two years (fuel prices, again), I’ve been building and testing HHO boosters again. Thus far, I’ve built twelve different kinds (I published some of the testing and photos on a website I’ve since given up), and I have to agree with “Gary Diamond” here in that most of what came of modulating, moderating, and pulsing current was blown fuses.
Painless might want to put some numbers where his Xs and Ys are, in other words. I work everything out with math first – you save a hell of a lot of money spent on mistakes that way – and you’ll discover that way that moderating the amount or proportion of KOH in the electrolyte not only saves time and money spent on building and ruining, it gets gas mileage equal to anything you get from “PWM.”
I’ve also learned, categorically and incontrovertibly, that outside of certain mathematical constraints – the performance numbers having to do with the specific engine – one is wasting his time in trying to get more HHO production. The Second Law of Thermodynamics does apply here (it doesn’t apply everywhere, as some would have you believe), and that means you’re trying to improve the efficiency of the way your car burns fuel more than anything else.
With my 2000 Toyota Corolla, 1.8 Liter engine, the best HHO injection has proved to be 600 to 800 milliliters. That’s at 55 mph highway speed (around town, your guess is probably as good as mine). If I could get someone to build me a new computer (an airline captain and ex-Navy fighter pilot friend is trying to prevail upon computer chip designers to do that for me), I could be more certain, but this is what my math and experiments have told me.
How much you will improve efficiency of your engine has a lot to do with your engine and its condition. My Toyota (we’ve got a new Jaguar, too – but my wife drives that while I use its computer to help know what going on in the Toyota) has 151, 000 plus miles on it, still doesn’t use any oil, and runs like the proverbial watch. You can not only feel the difference in the engine’s performance when the HHO cell is in operation (something with which my wife scared hell out of herself and smashed our trash can with one day when she took my car to work), careful tests on the road leave no doubt (I hooked a gallon container to the fuel lines, drained the regular tank, and traveled until the gas ran out, for instance). I also noticed recently that when Firestone changed my oil after a year having passed between changes that the oil was so clean it had everyone going to the computer – unable to believe the oil was that old.
You will probably have to either relate amount of HHO production and injection to engine displacement or actually calculate how much vaporized fuel is being used at certain engine speed (size of displacement, rpms, et cetera), do the Ideal Gas Law computations, and calculate proportion of HHO to vaporized gasoline. The former is (obviously) simpler and just about (for all practical purposes) as accurate. Just draw the proportion: (for instance) 600 milliliters to 1.8 liters (my Toyota’s engine displacement).
Don't forget to account for loss of HHO to leaking. Hydrogen is the "leakiest" substance known to man - it goes right through metal even most kinds of steel. It has to get to the cylinders as fast as possible, something I've tried to calculate by means of the Ideal Gas Law, expansion, etc. - without a hell of a lot of luck (basically, "guesstimate"). This comes down to "proof in the pudding" - see how the various amounts of HHO injection effect engine speed, etc.. Use a rubber hose, for instance (yeah I sure do use that term a lot) expect to lose a big proportion of the HHO before it gets to the engine.
I’m very interested in how everyone sets up their circuitry, by the way, the reason I happen to have come to this site. I’ve had good success (I hate the word “luck”) with increasing the air flow over the HHO cell, even with diverting airflow through the radiator fan. Location of the cell in the engine compartment has much to do with cooling, too – something I’m “fooling around” with at present.
Anyway, I hope to hear from anyone who’s having success with HHO methods – ideas are the real gold of physics and science, and like the precious metal you find them everywhere.
I had a post on here that was rather negative in reading and the last few weeks have been a real eye opener for me. I joined another site and promptly got banned for voicing my apparently uneducated point of view, so I thought I'd clean up my posts over here! Anyway, the stay over there was good and I learned enough to re-evaluate my opinion on HHO for auto use. I want to get back into it, soon, full time, but even still I've done a few tests using it. My setup is in a computer case so i can drag it around and do different things with it.
For anyone that has not had much success, I will offer this (perhaps you went down my road...)
You have to make a fair bit of HHO efficiently, and not just steam, and not be sending caustic solution into your motor. At times i managed to make better volume than I do now, even, but at the cost of amps. Simple and useless information for the experienced hobbiest, but not so simple for the newb. Worse, you can't be making, and sending into your motor too much HHO either.
Both of my attempts, first ones at HHO auto use fell prey to these situations. initially i was making too little HHO to have effect and later I was making slightly too much. I now believe that a goal of 2.0-2.5 lpm for my 6.9l diesel will do the trick. You can't spend 40 amps on HHO generation, and be wasting your effort even more dramatically if your engine isn't capable of utilizing that gas, which was my final mistake. It is a fine balance.
A PWM does help. It helps the newb learn to be a veteran, which I am not, but I've made leaps and bounds in a few weeks. The best gain I ever got before was negligable at best, and today on a road trip, I actually calculated a 15-20% gain, over a 100 mile trip.
As I see it, in a perfect world, you will gain all the HHO experience you need to design, redesign and perfect the perfect HHO setup for you vehicle where the cost (amps) is offset by the output (liter per min) for YOUR engine wherein you have created better use of your fuel, more complete combustion, and the overall end result is that it gave back to you the horsepower to make the stuff (alternator) + a little gain.
Thing is, you do have to start with a reasonably efficient reactor or your battle is futile, which was my problem for quite some time!
The PWM helps you learn this by being able to pulse current (less current is used over time) or just dial back the current, period.
in time, you will understand (i hope anyway... im still learning!) what your vehicle really wants, and you can control all of those variables by making a suited reactor, running a suited concentration (to hit the amp draw) that gives you the needed volume of output.
At that point, the PWM most likely just looks good on the dash. And, it'll help on long trips when your reactor gets to hot. Or extremely hot summer days, maybe even too. Consider this: if the PWM was miraculous, it wouldn't have a knob on it, or two! The real secret is to read what others know (hhounderground.com is a good start) - MY PWM compensates for my reactors "not-so-perfect" match to my diesels needs, at best. A finely tuned match between reactor and motor, would render my PWM unneeded under most circumstances, including ALL short trips in my vehicle.
in the meantime, it helps me learn.
Thats only how I see it, there very well could be a whole lot more to it. Hope i don't get banned :P
thats my 2c
* my motor is a 1989 6.2l (Detroit Allison designed?) diesel motor with only a MAP sensor, no computer. As i understand it, the MAP sensor is there only to assist the emissions control. Given no catalytic convertor (in mine) and a simple pollution control system, I am not yet convinced that MAP adjustments would yield a whole lot better results, but i can certainly see many engines needing (esp. gas jobs) a fair bit of electronic "tweaking" EFIE, MAP, MAF sensor - a lot of spoofing may be required to stop the motor from dumping in extra fuel. Also, the 6.2l diesel is a bit of an inefficient underpowered "dog" to begin with. A slight increase of say 4-6% H.P. -seems- to help stop my transmission from dropping a gear on hills, which in turn, could be responsible for fuel savings. Also, a 6.2l diesel when a high miler (mine has 380,000 km on it) is notorious for having stress cracks in the block, and heads. Introducing any mods for HP increase, at all - is not recommended, you may experience spontanious engine leaks due to the motor finally giving up the ghost under duress. For that reason, a Generation I Cummins 6cyl or early gen 7.3l ford might be a better bet for HHO. In my case, my truck truly is my beater, and owes me nothing, so I'm ok with experimenting. Also, I have a 6.5 ready to go in it, if need be, so I'm less cautious. Good experimental vehicles are inefficient vehicles, and simple vehicles with minimal pollution control circuitry. Old diesel jettas, carbed toyotas (though they were pretty well designed for economy). Diesels offer the advantage of not having to deal with the timing of a spark plug in the whole equation, though many still would have MAP/MAF/EFIE.
I find it interesting that most people simply use a PWM to control the current through an electrolyser in order to maintain the unit at a specific working temperature. In reality of course we want as much hydroxy produced as possible all of the time and so a PWM would not really be necessary in a correctly designed electrolyser.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
The PWM was not originally designed to simply control the current or the heating of an electrolyser, and in fact has an altogether different purpose, which stems from the work of Puharich and Meyer, then more recently by Dave Lawton, Ravi and others.
The real idea behind using a PWM was to break down the water molecule by a method other than simple Faraday Electrolysis - but sadly this seems to have been lost to most people.
I am lead to believe that with 20,000hz-50,000hz square wave and an amplifier(music),placing both pos and neg output wires(speaker) In water with alu foil wrapped on each tip will split water! So if we could get our cells(plates) to resonate at that frequency sirely it would help with production and a pwm would become more effective in its use???,
A PWM will also protect your electrodes from premature corrosion. I built colloidal mineral generators for many years and controlling the current as the mineral strength in the water increase is vital. You can also get current runaway with that process which will produce larger and larger particles. That translates to rapid loss on the electrodes.
Although it takes less technology to control colloidal generation current then with HHO cells.
I think that what you are alluding to is very different to what people here are trying to achieve, which is basically the production of hydrogen and oxygen... and as much of it as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent
I have never witnessed stainless steel electrodes corroding even from high current electrolysis. I have seen a mineral build up on the cathode when 'hard' water is used, but this is not corrosion.
Farra, Here is what it looks like.
What a mess!
MOYG, I've never seen anything like that. But then I only ever use low concentrations of NaSO4 as my electrolyte, if any at all.
So I strongly suspect it is down to the very high concentrations of very corrosive electrolytes (KOH and NaOH) that most people here tend to use. These poor electrodes are basically immersed in extremely strong acids or alkalines, which are then made more active by continuous ion current flow. Stainless steel is good, but its corrosion resistance has its limits! Not to mention the fact that if the metal is reacting like that, then the gas output will be reduced by non-productive chemical reactions.
To me this is just one more good reason to minimise the concentration of such electrolytic compounds.
Farra, there is lots to learn from these plates. Here are some. First, this is what happens to someone who does not know what they are doing. If you look carefully at the plates you can tell exactly what happened. I was told the electrolyte was 8% NaOH that is less than 50% max and ran at reasonable temps (just between 38º C to 40º C) drawing 8 to 12 amps. Now on a 2500 mile trip you would think one would consider adding water :eek: well in this case not until the amps moved up to 15 amps did this enter into his mind duh... This happened more than one time during the trip. You can see the electrolyte level was right at the high damage line so obviously it ran like that for some time. With the water being used up level goes down and concentration goes up causing increased amps in a very small area and the results are just what you see. This is a good time to recommend a PWM for people like this. I see a PWM as something to use in Winter when you are trying to keep the electrolyte from freezing 0º C or below and when it is linked to RPM/MAP/TPS to increase and decrease the amount of HHO being injected instead of just one amount all the time. Now this does not take into consideration pulsing etc to help separate the water into it's components which is still under investigation and not clear cut in the practical world anyway.Quote:
So I strongly suspect it is down to the very high concentrations of very corrosive electrolytes (KOH and NaOH) that most people here tend to use. These poor electrodes are basically immersed in extremely strong acids or alkalines, which are then made more active by continuous ion current flow. Stainless steel is good, but its corrosion resistance has its limits! Not to mention the fact that if the metal is reacting like that, then the gas output will be reduced by non-productive chemical reactions.
To me this is just one more good reason to minimise the concentration of such electrolytic compounds.
I see. So basically the water was being used up and not replaced, which thereby concentrated the electrolyte to far above the initial 8%.
This of course is an extreme case but shows that the plates can and do get eaten up under the right conditions. Two many amps per square inch is damaging even though you might not see it in the short term in most cases. When the over amperage is not excessive, it would take 1000s of hours of run time to show up.
hello i did this and had success at first it ran but not so good then put engine tdc and mod the flyweel so magneto is dead on tryed it and runs great its work but fun also mod the carbQuote:
Originally Posted by SmartScarecrow
Concerning the PWM technology itself, it's a more efficient way of reducing the applied power without wasting power by using a dropping resistor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Diamond
PWM is also adjustable, in case you want to adjust the power due to certain conditions.
General rule of thumb, you want 2 volts per cell so you don't waste power generating heat instead of HHO.
If you were really serious, you might just mount a 2nd alternator to power the cells, and after removing the regulator, you could adjust the field to get the voltage you want under circumstances where you want more HHO.
You don't need a PWM. I did the math and realized it only takes a little under 2 hp to generate 15 amps minimal so I'm guessing the alternator needs the make 20 amps nominal to separate the H2 O2 from the water. Again, an educated guess of 3 hp nominal. I would need to see a 6 hp increase on a dyno after leaning out the mix to believe that this works.
It's a simple concept and a simple test so why are there no youtube videos and other documentation to prove this simple fact? If anyone knows where I can see some dyno results, I'd be willing to try one of these contraptions. Otherwise, refer what David Hannum said to PT Barnum.