HHO ECU tuning the right way

Hi guys, this is my first time posting but I'm not new to vehicles and modifications. I've been looking into HHO for some time and until now haven't heard enough first hand accounts of success. Now that I know it works in reality I need to be able to have it work properly and reliably.

I've read all about the signal modifiers for the MAF and o2 sensors and understand why they are being made but I don't believe that's the right way for me. Tricking a cars computer is bad idea because it functions on so many levels. You modify you MAF signal and your load values are all skewed which has effects on your timing etc. You fool your o2 sensors to get a nice mpg improvement but a month or whatever later you find you melted a piston by running it too lean and rippin on it. This car is going to be my DD for a 150k round trip daily and will see some serious abuse on and off the track. While driving to work last summer I could get 24mpg over a weeks highway commute at 120kph. I'd love to see 30+

I have a 1994 Mustang GT with a mild performance built 5.0l, Tweecer hardware interface for ECU and Binary Editor and EEC analyser software for tuning as well as a Innovate wideband o2 sensor and display for a tuning aid. The only other thing that would make this a perfect test vehicle is EGT monitoring gauges. 300 rwhp

1.
My big question is what air fuel ratio I should be running with HHO gas? For gasoline the stoichiometric burn ratio is 14.64 to 1. What is the Stoic burn ratio for a given gasoline and hho mixture?

2.
What is the limit of the stock narrowband sensors for reading a lean burn? Can I effectively modify my tune to make it all work? has anybody tuned an ECU for performance and HHO gas? Thanks all

to clarify this is a pre-purchase question. I dont have any HHO hardware yet because I'm completing a suspension overhaul and upgrade over the next month or two. I just want to hear from some more people who have experience with ECU intergration.

You can download and free version of BE and EA for http://eecanalyzer.net/ maybe someone has used something like this before. Thanks again

Has anybody thought of using a Innovate wideband o2 sensor in place of the stock HEGO's? You could program the second channel to match the OEM sensors voltage but have the afr switchpoint anywhere you want it. Say at 15.5 -16. This would net MPG on its own but the addition of HHO gas should make it even better while also maintaining performance.

bumpitybumpbump

HHO is no new but nobody care before and now the people is who research and experiment with the own cars and money, dealers and car companies are complete quiet about HHO development, no private projects are financed for the government bla bla bla so the right way for do this a install a HHO unit with a stable injection and right CC and mixture of H, temperatures, presures, residues and timing of the engine and proper reprogramming of the ECU and this is something impossible because every car need a specific change and using different HHO systems in same brand and model going to need a different reprogramming so we have to take this very easy because we dont have support and nobody want to mess with the ECU unit that is why the people cheat with the sensors.

I think a wideband could be useful for anyone wanting to tune.

If you are considering a purchase then you will mostly find 6x6" reactors solo or in kit forms. Some work well and others suck balls. Regardless, I don't know of any builder out there that pre-conditions their own reactors before selling them. I have seen wild variations in the potency of what we call HHO here and the cause is most always related to crappy design or lack of preparation.

You sound like an potential engineer; why not just build your own?

That's what I am doing right now. I bought the Innovate LC-1 to control my O2. This is all well addressed by PJ Kelly's site. He shows just moving the lean/rich toggle point for a narrow band simulation up 1 point, i.e. instead of toggling at 14.5~, toggle at 15.5. That's where I am starting... Doing a Buick Cent. '02. These GM engines have a MAP and MAF, freq based to boot. Any car that bothers to put use both a MAF and MAP sensor, I figure I got to control both, those two things got to give the ECU designer pretty tight control over engine performance. Just a hunch... So most vehicles they seem to say you get control of the ECU with just a MAP and the O2. I would bet otherwise on these GM engines. Got a Ford Windstar I am looking at, I think it just has a MAF. Def. gonna look at 16+ AFR. They say do it until the engine starts to run poorly, then back off. Using a Jaycar DFA on the MAP, Total control of all signals, can make it do whatever you want. Built it myself from the kit, $60, about 2 mos. project. Since its my first tuning attempt, also installed an Auber Instrument EGT to keep an eye on things.

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Originally Posted by SuckSqueezeBangBlow

2.
What is the limit of the stock narrowband sensors for reading a lean burn? Can I effectively modify my tune to make it all work? has anybody tuned an ECU for performance and HHO gas? Thanks all

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Regarding your 2nd question, when you install the LC-1 on an older model car (new ones, $$ cars may already be using a wide band, I dunno about that :)), you are replacing the narrow band with the kit's wide band sensor. When I do my other cars, after seeing how things look, I am gonna go cheap and just try an eagle-research EFIE $20, say on my daughters car.

had a vaca in here, but got the LC-1 installed now. Using the LSU-4 wide-band to replace the OEM narrow band. Throws a PO135 code about the heater circuit. So I have to run the old O2 sensor off to the side somewhere:mad:. My guage to the AFR signal isn't picking anything up:(. More work. Hope the LC-1 isn't bad... Can't program it yet bc my laptop does not have a DB9 connector. found cheap adapters ($3-$6~) free mail on ebay for USB port. I think they need to update that in the Innovative Motor Sports kit.

Got it all hooked up. Works as advertised. Big problem the whole HHO system though. Programmed in the narrow band graph to run about .03v leaner, and accordingly the AFR increased (leaner) to run more around 16 vs 14.7. controlled the MAP sensor with my DFA, it runs about 2psi lower, meaning the PCM would see less demand for gas. so far so good. cranked up my mileage shop HHO generator with addt'l electrolyte to run at 15A to max out the output. So guess what, mileage dropped from about 30 to 27mpg on the trip in :mad:. And the Fuelsaver-MPG MAF frequency controller didn't work at all, killing the motor when turned on. I am gonna try a complete brain-drain of the PCM, like it just came off the assembly line. Maybe another point or 2 on the AFR. Could be timing, so I will need to control the IAT and ECT before I can say definitely that this crap don't work.

up and running on one O2 sensor with LC-1 and MAP under control A-OK by my DFA. Fuelsaver MAF cntlr problematic, turn it on and the motor totally dies. Fuelsaver says it works with GM, so going to do a piggy-back of the MAF signal and scope it. Maybe just defective. Got a spare so can swap it out. hho4free site says to not bother with the MAF if it freq based, just do the MAP...

Running narrow band curve in LC-1 moved to lean side by just .04v, getting suspicious fluctuations of power as I monitor the AFR bouncing too much between 14.5 and 16. Gas pedal pressure steady under mild pull, I can feel the car acceleration fluctuate in sync with the AFR. Power seems to peak when the AFR peaks (lean). I think that is good. No improvement in mileage yet.

Getting P0135 code every start up after clearing on my scangauge. Once cleared it goes away for that cycle. However I think I am stuck on the low end of the learning cycle of the PCM, takes 100+ mi. to settle in to the environment I think after every code clear. This is just the heater wires to the narrow band sensor disconnected since the LC-1 has taken that over since I decided to install it by substituted a wide-band in place of the narrow band. You either use the same O2 sensor installation bung or have to get another one welded on, nosirree-bob to that.

Here is what I think is going on. My post cat O2 sensor is in a battle with my LC-1 and the PCM is fluctuating between the 2. Just a WAG on my part... So got my work cut out, going to try to drive the post-cat O2 signal with the same output from my LC-1. Then hook up the old narrow band heater wires in parallel with the post-cat sensor heater wires and steal that impedance info feeding it into the PCM. I feel like I am in the novel "Of Mice and Men".:D

found that the lc1 high time constant filter I selected, on the sensor caused the pulsing acceleration, sped it up a bit.

Put back the stock O2 sensor in and weld in a bung for the Innovate wideband - that's simple enough. Cars and their O2 sensors are very finicky and picky to the point that just difference in things like brand and length of wire etc can throw things off and throw error with the stock ECU - let alone what you are trying to do. You can log and monitor your AFR vs RPM (and other parameters if you purchase a separate item from Innovate). So no need to be fighting with your stock ECU how you are. And once you have logs to see the difference the HHO addition is making then you can make adjustments to the Program/fuel maps in your software or even hook up and EFIE to see if it really does what it's supposed to and achieves what you are trying to do. Also note that upon installing your Wideband you have to calibrate it or you will get false reading, just thought I'd say that just in case you missed it in the installation.

I too am researching with hopes of eventually adding an HHO system to my car which I have turbo charged and running with a piggy back tuner and I also have an Innovate Wide Band that I use for tuning/data logging purposes for open loop/boost driving. I've just got to work out the kinks of how I'm going to supplement with HHO and integrate some fail safes into the mix so that if for whatever reason like say I run out or get low on water for HHO then it switches over to a fuel only MAP for boost as running while boosting (turbo) and running out of it (HHO) would make for a nice blown engine due to being too lean. So I've got a bit more on my plate to factor in than the average Joe.

Kman, thanks for the suggs. Here's my latest though. Fuelsavers freq MAFenhancer no workee on GM. Period. Total mismatch on the waveform, could work if the electronics could be verified to be using edge triggering somewhere. That was the thinking at Fuelsavers. But when hooked up, the output line looked as if it was hooked up to ground, just dead, no signal. Good signal on the oscope though (high impedance). So there is first of all an impedance mismatch there most likely. Returned them. On the extra bung, I dont want to invest a hundreds of dollars every time I do something, Just run too big into the hole to ever get my money out without some proof of getting sig. double digit percentage mileage improvement On the P0135 error Innovate suggests to just hang the old O2 sensor with the heater hookup. I tried power wire hook up, and not the ground, figuring it should be the same, but no joy there. So I did what Innovate said in the manual, that worked. So I could control the MAP and the O2, figured I start to see some improvement, but no, all worse mpg than straight HHO, so far. Got to check the HHO output on my generator again. Got to push to the 2lpm range maybe. Otherwise not seeing the benefit so far.

Problems, problems. OK returned MAFe's to Fuelsavers still no refund yet:mad:.
Kept getting P0420 when I tried to drive the second O2 sensor with the LC-1 A1 channel. That means identical signal both sensors, so I guess that could means the PCM thinks the cat is broke. Put a 5M resistor, on the post cat sensor signal wire, that did the trick. So now the PCM is free to work and settle into its new environment. I was too agressive on the MAP intercept and have cut that back. Have seen some low fuel flow numbers on idle, but then it goes high delivering a higher more normal looking MAP(not what I programmed), but then it is really leaning things out on the AFR, 17-18+. Idles rough too. So the PCM is doing something already to get around my 2 sensor control. overall mileage is back up near the high delivered on straight gas, might have gotten 5% higher with HHO, no sensor control. Just not sure due to calibration difficulties of scangauge flow meter readings with the gas pump. Have settled it there at a 16% number, but still waffle on a 2% correction on the odometer (tires?). Just aint easy.... Since I got no boost from HHO now I could maybe tune the MAP a little better, but something is wrong. I might need more HHO, got to look at that more. LC_ is easy to adjust, down to about a .02v increase on the values, shifting the lean rich signal point from .42v to about .73. Could be too much there too.

Before you start tinkering with your MAF or O2 sensor values, the first question to ask is - How does HHO boosting affecting the OBD II values? So you need to establish baseline values first, and then, boost HHO and watch the OBD II values see if these changes. The baseline should be a few weeks of driving. Boosting should again be a few weeks.

got the lc1 to feed its signal to the b1s2 O2 sensor but needed to pipe it thru a 5M resistor to keep the P0420 code away(s1 & s2 have identical signal), knocking the signal down, couldn't see the diff on a meter, fluctuates big time. Seeing some good numbers on fuel flow idle noticeable lower at times. can get numbers no higher than the best posted without o2 and the dfa map enhancer still. absolutely must need MAF controller, planning to add some resistors to the ECT & IAT. Fuelsavers freq MAFe doesn't work on GM freq based maf, still looking. I think I am low on HHO output ~1lpm on 3l v6, needs 2. planning a fuel heater, darn Buick has 2 lines=2 heaters. Be nice to do some water injection. Have some weird moments on warmup, AFR climbs ~20+, fuel flow climbs +20%, MAP climbs even though an enhanced signal, idling rough. gonna build another wetcell, sure aint dropping another 2-300.

found another make of freq MAFe, magnumtuning.com, checking it out.

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Originally Posted by greenfuelbooster

Before you start tinkering with your MAF or O2 sensor values, the first question to ask is - How does HHO boosting affecting the OBD II values? So you need to establish baseline values first, and then, boost HHO and watch the OBD II values see if these changes. The baseline should be a few weeks of driving. Boosting should again be a few weeks.

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thanks for your interest. Ran my mileageshop booster for a year no enhancers, highest to low output, maybe got 1-2 mpg improvement. running a lean toggle point of about .72v on the LC1, normal is .42v (narrow band). might be too lean, but some thief stole my usb-db9 cable out of my car, so I'm stuck until the new one comes in. Got an AFR gauge and EGT gauge running nice, AFR really nails performance from the lc1. running a scangauge too.

Hey Green, great work on those platinum boosters and programming the PCM. I am gonna order some software for that. (ebay). How much current does one booster draw?

Wow, was running my old O2 sensor heater to kill the P0135 light I got with the LC1 doing the narrow band sensor duties, must've got wet, shorted out or something. finally figured out I needed to just run a 10ohm resistance. So I took a cue from http://www.searcypress.com/fuelcell/index.html which advocate running the HHO thru a coil. I compromised on a 18ohm coil. works, ECU/PCM likes it, mileage at 15% increase. Also need to wear a tinfoil hat when driving:rolleyes: gph is at lowest ever on idle!!! .32 this AM and ECU just starting to settle in its new error free environment.

I have Nissan Titan with a 43 plate cell. The HEC unit that came with my kit was not functioning properly so I returned it for a replacement. While I'm waiting for the replacement I decided to experiment with the cell to find the optimum current range to run at as it's hot in Vegas and running near the cell's maximum rating is not possible. I had the opportunity to drive from Vegas to LA twice. The Titan is rated at 13/14/17 mpg. On my first trip I did about 15 mpg on the highway. The second time I did just above 18 mpg. I've managed to maintain about 13 mpg on the streets before hho. Recently, I've been seeing just above 15 mpg on the streets and my combined has worked up to 17. The other day I did a test where I ran with hho off on a short trip and turned it on the return. I definitely noticed it ran a bit rough with the hho off but the mpg was very similar in both directions. This is clearly a sign that the ECU is learning and adapting to the hho in a positive way. Especially when you consider my first run to LA gave me worse mpg which can be expected without any treatment to the sensors. This just makes me wonder how far I can get without any electronics.

A 1: You don't need anything to burn H2 O2. The gas carries it's own O2. To run a vehicle on hydroxy, you would need a safe storage container, a compressor to compress the gas into the fuel rail, and an ECU to trigger the opening of gas sealed injectors at the right time. Why isn't anybody doing it? Because the entire Republican party and most of the Democrats are controlled by big oil. The entire global economy is based on big oil. The dominate species on the planet has become a collective addict to big oil. Get it?

A 2: O2 sensors in vehicles are the only sensors that create voltage. They create voltages between .1 VDC (lean) and .9 VDC (rich). The computer samples voltage levels on a repetitive time factor depending on the computer (example: once every second) and adjusts the opening of the injectors accordingly. They make devices that allegedly increase the voltage by a nominal amount, tricking the ECU into thinking that it's running a tad rich all the time to cause less fuel to be injected into the combustion chamber. 'Nominal' is the key word in this case. Do they really do that? Well I haven't seen any of them that incorporate a digital voltage gauge that confirms that they do. Furthermore I would only use a device that does this in between the O2 sensor and the computer. I would never hook up wires to the ODBII connector.