Fuel injector signal as controler, some EE help please?

It seems as though it would be ideal to use a proportional amount of HHO as you would petrel, for many reasons. I'd be interested to go into that, but I first what to know how feasible this would be to setup (for very little money, and a willingness to solder).

To my understanding the injector signal directly (bumped up to necessary current of coerce) would leave the cell off a lot. To combat that a switching device that has a fast on and a slow off could be of great importance, i don't know if such a component exists for necessary A range, alternately a fast on fast off if capable of 100A+ may be the way to go.

thanks for any help

This PWM controller/PWM can be linked to your MAP or MAF, which is directly related to load and RPM.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EFIE-...item414a860707
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/45A-C...Q5fAccessories
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5975

Yes, that is that standard way of setting things up, but not at all what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Owen_

Yes, that is that standard way of setting things up, but not at all what I'm talking about.

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I guess i dont follow your first post. The link i provided you is a variable output PWM. It increases HHO output with engine speed. Example 0.5 LPM at idle 2.0 LPM under a load.

I no the VMU was supposed to do that also, but I'm not sure they actually have that function working.

I'm working on an all-in-one gadget that senses engine speed via a loop of wire around the spark plug wires. Easy access and can be programmed to a certain LPM at certain engine speeds. Is THAT what you had in mind?

The idea is that a fuel injector signal varies in length (for fuel mix) and in frequency (engine speed). Also it will cut off completely in DFCO (deceleration fuel cup off) mode.
Therefor if this signal was spliced into (easy) and use to control current to the HHO cell (not so easy) the HHO production would be exactly proportional to fuel use.

you don't want a loop of wire you want a transformer. if you can find a old Xeon timming light with a clip on transformer it should work.

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Originally Posted by thedore

you don't want a loop of wire you want a transformer. if you can find a old Xeon timming light with a clip on transformer it should work.

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The loop of wire Phil was speaking of is essentially a transformer and does what the timing light clip performs.

I've used it before to good effect. The firing plug induces a voltage in the loop which is in effect your sensor. After signal conditioning, it is easily fed into your logic.

If the objective was the have a RPM basted controller, they yes...

Still not what I was talking about...

Okay, so there seems to be some high current transistors on the market these days. So splicing into the injector control line, and using it as the base should be simple. Injectors have around 60ohm resistance so it should be easy to avoid messing up there function.
The main problem I see at present is tuning, and using an appropriate cell. I want a relatively equal production per millisecond of pulse at WOT and idle. I think they only way to get this is with a cell that has far too much plate surface (to normal standards).
As far as tuning, it will be hard to adjust the production per millisecond, though it may be possible to tweak the voltage a little, what with the transistor set up and all.
Any thoughts?

Couldn’t you use the throttle position sensor to control your PMW? It is easy to mount if the car does not have one and cheap. Most newer cars have them.

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Originally Posted by myoldyourgold

Couldn’t you use the throttle position sensor to control your PMW? It is easy to mount if the car does not have one and cheap. Most newer cars have them.

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That is an option, but would require interpreting the TPS's (throttle position sensor) voltage. You could also use a combination or rpm and the MAP signal. The great advantage to the fuel injector pulse, is that it is exactly the fuel used.
One example of an advantage:
In most newer cars there is a DFCO mode (deceleration fuel cut off), where the injectors don't get a signal at all. With a TPS set up you'd be giving it whatever you set as your idle amperage, rather than nothing.

There are enough problems in getting a reasonable amount of HHO in the first place without a huge battery draw. This has to be done first before the volume is reduced to match the RPM.

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Originally Posted by thedore

There are enough problems in getting a reasonable amount of HHO in the first place without a huge battery draw. This has to be done first before the volume is reduced to match the RPM.

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I'm not talking about RPM's, I'm talking about fuel use. The idea of this would reduce electric draw for low fuel use, and increase proportionally for higher.

Interesting subject, and one that I've been thinking about as well.
One of the problems that I think may be an issue is that the lag between when the current is varied, to the amount of gas being produced. Injection systems are pretty much instant in that the fuel delivery can change from one rev to the next, but HHO gas delivery takes a second or two to crank up - or down - a bit like turbo lag I guess.
One way to over come this is to store a small amount of it in a vessel, so that it can be released exactly when required, but doing this is pretty risky, so that's not going to work...
I'm not at all sure about the electronics of engine systems, but learning fast.

I know this is an old post, but injectors and injector wiring are finely tuned based on resistance through the ECM. They are not based only on voltage like a lot of other sensors. Think of electronic injectors as being 'on' or hot all the time on one end. The wire goes through the computer where it receives pulses of resistance via intermittent grounding signals from the 12v (pulse resistance in ohms).

When you so much as splice or cut and solder a finely tuned resistance, it throws the entire injector out of balance, not worth risking it. When you add an entire device on the end of the wire, you can bet your injector is going to have a big problem. Some aftermarket injector systems have much stronger pulses and less tedious ohm resistance. These would be add-ons you would use for example with boost in a turbo engine, or with rpm or something for nitrous.

Use an rpm based controller for this coming off the tach wire or ignition coil ground...or just use the throttle position sensor voltage or a mechanical throttle switch type device

edit- Its like you're turning your christmas lights on and off real fast at different speeds, you can't run another device off of an intermittent signal, and it would blow the xmas lights if you used to much.

One way to get the signal you need from the injector is to use an opto isolator...that is the easy part.

This would only load the circuit to the tune of 0.010 to 0.015 A...Injector drive would not even notice.

place that part of the circuit as close the the injector lines as possible.

The output of this should go through shielded lines to your HHO circuitry

The opto should be a fast one...10MHz or better.

This will get you the information you need of a fuel proportional signal.

However,

The overall duty cycle of the injectors will never get to 100%.

You would need a circuit to translate the injector maximum duty cycle to 100%

so little time

so many ideas

good luck

Tried the injector pulse in a few ways. Caused misfiring at various levels. So i went to the coil signal (same pulse signal with no adverse affect). I also learned one awesome trick! The injector signal will increase if the pcm or ecm is trying to give more fuel to the engine, so to compensate for the problem of getting too much fuel, i built a controller to decrease voltage to my fuel pump. In essence reducing the fuel getting to the engine so i can actually idle on hho, when i turn the pump off. I have a digital voltage meter on each side of my controller for a positive voltage/off reading. I used a phone cord and a relay bypass i built and a modified dimmer as the controller.
Also when the ecm or pcm is trying to add fuel it will also close the iac or iav to reduce the amount of air. So with several check valves and lines to my intake so as the HHO will be pulled in on both sides of my throttle this at the same rate i get amazing results. NO efie, NO map or maf tampering! This and my own designed generator(HHO), is where i(we) were able to get 129 miles from 1 (one) gal. of gas. Its not plug and play, its play and play and play.
I'm still working on some ideas and will keep going, so I'll keep reading and slowly writing.

Hey James,

I've been reading some of your post and you seem to have a good handle on HHO and modern engine systems. Can you give us a detailed overview of your installs, mods, results and cell? Maybe a video or some pictures too.

Maybe a thread in general of your projects. I think it would be very helpful. You have got some incredible results. :)

Working on the new setup i have. Running my old cell out of a factory gas tank, pump, filter from a Ford Focus. Using it to force feed my cell. I'm working on the heating of the water to near steam state, prior to the cell. Then cooling it down for return to the tank, as the HHO is separated and contained then Ionized at the intake. I have a theory that i don't need to boost the pressure so much as that i need less stable H2 at detention. Stanley Meyers wasn't a complete crackpot, he had something !?!?!

I followed the steps to put picks on here but i still cant get the part to come up that allows me to download. Pop up blocked i think, but i don't have much on the computer anyhow. Its in a camera i keep just for my HHO stuff.
I cant recall for sure what got my attention with HHO, but ever since its been an obsession, not to mention because i drive as much as i do its a bug that kept me up day and night for months! I started to look at everything i could, all the youtube videos, HHO sites, sales. Anything i could find i studied! Stanley Meyers is the one thing i kept going back to though. I just remembered !!!!!!!!! I was looking at fuel vaporization and found the HHO stuff !
After maybe two three months of studying HHO, I built a wet cell out of s.s. washers and rod. Like 50 washers that were 2 1/4, and 155 3/4 and nylon lock nuts. I stacked them in a alternating series and had one side pos. one neg. Tricky because they wanted to touch every so often. Had to file and bend and stack them all one way(washers are cut in a press and have a cupping effect)! Then when i was actually doing well with that i went to over 400 washers but that lived about one month. To long, to heavy and didn't work as well, even with koh!
Then i went to tubes! Current cell is 11 3/4 in long, 2 in wide o.d. Started with koh, and pushed the amps to 50 ish. Found that i don't need ANY electrolytes, one day i was messing around and found that when i used a charger to bump the cell to 50 amps for about 30 sec. then dropped it to 2 amps and left it there, i had more production at 2 amps then if i kept it at 50 amps in Straight tap! Along with some tricks i use to get better mileage i played with my car for about two months when i decided to try running the car with the cell really hot, And cutting back the gas. The o2 wasn't working on cutting enough fuel out so i put a switch in line to the fuel pumps power wire, so as i could just control the pump speed. With a volt meter on both sides of the switch to make sure that was happening, i could turn power to the pump from the 14.3 or so that the car was running at to 0. Most of the time i ran it at 4.55 volts, at times i could just turn it off(the pump), WE drove from Villa Rica, Ga. to Fayetteville, Ga. to Merietta, Ga. and back to Villa Rica,Ga. on one gallon of gas. On the interstate we drove 70 mph, in the city was varied and had to up the pump to 9.7 volts to take off at lights.
HOW do i know it was one gallon ????????
I ran my car empty at home, put ONE gallon in the tank, and two more in the trunk. Then ran it till the gallon was gone!
Ran out 2.5 miles from home. Round trip 129 miles on the trip odometer.
A few huge problems with that; melted my HHO gen.(the case), and three relays, and two pump switches.
After making a new case i put the gen on my '97 Suburban for a trip to New York(Long Island). Added a massive tank setup, but didn't get to use it on the way there. I was running late so had to build it on the way. Finished it there on Long Island and used it on the trip home. I suppose if i weren't running between 85 and 105 to get to court in Virgina, i may have seen even better results than i did, but it absolutely worked on the way back!
Some guy on the Interstate in South Carolina was breaking his neck to take pictures of my setup on the front bumper. The whole thing less electronics was there.

Cant give you a exact number in mileage. But we put in 3 tank fulls to get to Long Island and around for a couple of days. Not much driving while there. And the trip back only took 2 tanks. I had planned on a solid test with matching speeds and mileage, but time wise messed that up. We drove there at 70-75 mph, which got me 13.3 mpg. We drove back at 85-105 mph(i can prove this by another speeding ticket in Virgina), and yet we got 13.7 mpg. Not much you say and i know, but the faster you go the MORE fuel you use! Period.
I can only imagine what the difference would have been if we could have driven it the same both ways!

Madsceintist

your going about this the right way by controlling pump voltage and thus fuel pressure. The computer cannot fight this. A pwm is perfect for this.
What are you using to control voltage?
I am doing some experiments using a pwm connected to the fuel pump but there is even a better way. More on that later.

Madsceintist

So you have 2 different cars you are testing.


What car was the 127 mpg car? What kind of vehicle are you controlling the fuel pump on?
How hot do you think your cell was getting, and how much water did you use on that trip?

My primary car is a 2000 Chevy Cavalier 2.2 automatic, but for our trip to New York, i took off my gen and electronics to put on my 1997 Chevy Suburban 4x4. Since the Cavalier is being taken by our oldest, I'm returning it to factory. I'll be driving my 1989 Ford Taurus SHO for a while, so I may put the setup on it! Don't know yet. One of my customers has donated his 1992 Toyota Corolla to the cause since he has seen what I'm doing, not to mention his wife wrecked the car and he had to buy another at that time. I had just replaced the engine prior to the wreck, the damage wasn't terrible. Nonetheless, my plans for the Corolla is to eliminate gas as a fuel at all.
If your wondering, I'm a mechanic and have nearly 30 cars. Some in which I've owned for 13 yrs. From a 1957 F-100 to 2002 Mustang. Breed makes no difference but i do have a few Fords.
The cell, not sure what the temp was but it melted the 4 inch PVC pipe that was reinforced, enough that the threads came loose and leaked out the top. It was bowed in the center. At one point just before that a washer had apparently came in contact with another and the water had to have been low, because it detonated and left a dent in my hood. It wasn't a backfire because i heard it when it happened as i was driving on smooth interstate. During that trip i used about 2 gallons of water, in 730 miles, but most of it was from leaks.
The Cavalier is what i got 129 miles to that gallon, out of. I had already been getting 41.3-47.7 m.p.g. on my HHO setup regularly, and knew i could do something to beat that. So i started playing with an efie and my map sensor. I got really ****ty mileage out it for awhile. Then got around 37.7 average for a couple of trips. Took the efie off and left my map alone. Went back up on mpg. So i knew i needed to cut back on gas, but leave the computer alone. I made a dimmer for my fuel pump! Added digital voltage meters, amp gauge, and a relay with a high amp flasher(got it at a truck stop). For 1 1/4 gallons of water i used 1 teaspoon baking soda. I was running near 50 amps. AND I BURNED IT UP !!
After that i put a new gen together with a new idea. I run the tube 1.5 mm apart, on distilled water, no electrolyte, and I'm getting 39.1 mpg (as last used). I have some electronics I'm toying with and think i can beat what i have. But can't really give you more until i have more.

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I run the tube 1.5 mm apart, on distilled water, no electrolyte, and I'm getting 39.1 mpg (as last used).

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James, can you describe in detail what kind of reactor you are using. Pictures would be better though.

Here's my line up. But i have to take my gen apart to photo it.
The Suburb we took to New York, hasn't been driving since about Aug. '10 tranny took a dive while offroading.
The Toyota that's the donor.
And the only thing under the hood of the Cavalier right now is a solenoid a tee and a one way valve. The rest is piled up waiting for me to install it in something else.
My reactor is 316 food grade stainless. 2 inch outside tube 10 1/2 long, 1 5/8 inside tube 11 3/4 long, nuts welded to one end for the rods, and some self stick desktop foot pads as the spacers(from Walmart). The inside tube was cut and expanded slightly, to reduce my gap. Its not a full seam weld just several spots but its clean and serves the purpose.

I do not really need pictures of the reactor but would like a detail explanation of the how it is built. Tubs, plates, wire, type of electrolyte, and type of water like well or city or distilled etc. One more question I have is what was the weather like on the day (s) you got the high mileage. I am interested mainly in the climate/air at the time. Was it dry weather or humid?

myoldyourgold

do you have a tds meter?

No I do not. If I remember I could not find one that would read in the range I needed but I could be confusing with something else.

Dry, warm, April or May i believe. Probably around mid to upper 80's. Then i was using distilled water, baking soda. The cell then was stacked washers on rods, 50-2 1/4 inch washers and 156-3/4 inch washers staggered. I wanted the water warm so i had my reservoir next to my exhaust manifold. Funny thing is the reservoir didn't melt, the gen did!

Thank you this will help in understanding what is going on.

The one with washers was one i took apart and don't use now, it's what i was using for the 129 mpg, but went to tubes after that(less maintenance). Not trying to confuse anyone!

Madsceintist

What type of circuit do you use to control voltage to the fuel pump?
Are you using a standard pwm?

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Originally Posted by myoldyourgold

No I do not. If I remember I could not find one that would read in the range I needed but I could be confusing with something else.

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Trying to relate electrolyte conc with tds readings.

I am not sure but a few years ago when I looked into it, the concentration we are using were not on the scale or when it did it was to expensive. Do some research and let us know what you find. I have stayed with a hydrometer. Some lab grade ones cost as high as $40 but a simple battery hydrometer is in the range and accurate enough for some where around 3 to 12 dollars US.

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Originally Posted by Weapon_R

Trying to relate electrolyte conc with tds readings.

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TDS meters are useless with electrolytes, they max out with the lowest level of electrolyte (less than 1%) hydrometers are more practical.


Edit; That is, all the TDS meters that i have ever seen read in PPM Parts per million. There MIGHT be TDS meters that read in PPT/ thousands but i highly doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Roland Jacques

TDS meters are useless with electrolytes, they max out with the lowest level of electrolyte (less than 1%) hydrometers are more practical.


Edit; That is, all the TDS meters that i have ever seen read in PPM Parts per million. There MIGHT be TDS meters that read in PPT/ thousands but i highly doubt it.

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Roland thanks for clearing that up. You are correct its parts per million.
Ok so what I need is a hydrometer. Can you and myoldyourgold recommend one to me. Both simple and lab grade so I may decide.
Thanks

Any battery hydrometer will work but here is a link to ACE hardware it has the temperature compensation on it.

http://www.acehardware.com/product/i...ductId=1292142

Now the cheapest lab type hydrometer I can find is the 15 V 0887. You will also need a narrow cylinder to use this. They cost almost as much as this hydrometer.

http://wardsci.com/product.asp_Q_pn_...ity+Hydrometer

Here is the link for the cylinder.

http://wardsci.com/product.asp_Q_pn_...lene+Cylinders

myoldyourgold

very helpful thanks.
Is there a significant difference between the regular and lab grade?
Which would you recommend?