HHO and Diesel engines (moved from another thread).
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Originally Posted by
myoldyourgold
RustyLugNut:This is a complex situation and your reply above just touches on it. Your quick discussion of multiple and pre-injection diesel systems shows your are just skimming tech articles.
myoldyourgold:Well I have skimmed some articles but my comments were not intended to be an in depth technical dissertation on multiple pre-injection. I have had some hands on experience with a multi squirt VW that refused to do better than about 3% mileage gain no matter what until I went to electronics. That changed everything. It still is no where near the Mercedes or other diesels I have tested on. After all it was getting right at 50 miles per gallon to begin with which was very good. It was not cost effective either based on the amount of driving that was going to be done.
Give us more information on this VW of yours. What year, model and so forth? What electronic wizardry did you perform to "change everything"? What were the results?
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RustyLugNut:As I have stated in other posts, pre-injection diesel systems benefit greatly from the addition of HHO because the mix of a sub ignitable dose of diesel becomes conditioned by the breakdown of HHO to reactive sub species and the partial thermal decomposition of the diesel occurs.
The added release of Hydrogen approaches the classical studies which add 4% hydrogen and above.
myoldyourgold:Can you explain the process of "added release of Hydrogen"?
Diesel is a hydrocarbon. Tie up the carbon during thermal depolymerization and you free the 30 or so hydrogen atoms from the molecule.
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RustyLugNut:Once you delve deeply into those studies, you will realize the bottom line is HEAT RELEASE and the attendant increase in pressure. As you approach and surpass the 4% hydrogen volume in the combustion chamber, you will see that there is a delay between the injection point and heat release caused by the addition of hydrogen. The discussion of what occurs at the injection flame front is complex and lengthy and is better described via graphics and not text. But the bottom line is, the heat release delay needs to be dealt with via injection timing.
myoldyourgold:Can you give us an explanation of heat release delay. Cause and effect etc. I might be calling it something else.
The moment diesel is injected into the combustion chamber is not the moment the fuel starts burning, releasing its heat and the consequential pressure rise. There is a delay. The presence of hydrogen delays this heat release even more. At least until the lower flammability limit is crossed (4% volume for hydrogen) at which point the heat release will tend to be accelerated by the hydrogen. The cause of this is better understood by taking a course in classic combustion theory. There are variables to this, so application of these principles need to take this into account.
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RustyLugNut:Fool with your IAT, your CTS, your MAP or even your AARP, it doesn't help unless it addresses your timing.
myoldyourgold:In some cases the timing is retarded with adjusting the CTS and IAT. Has in every case I have tested on. Of course I have a limited test base. Just to make this clearer. The IAT and MAP have the most influence on timing. You can consider the IAT as a smaller increment adjustment and the MAP as a course adjustment. Higher temps retard ignition timing. More load retards ignition.
Since you say the above is true about the ability to use sensor manipulation to retard injection timing, how can this be used with our HHO volumes? How did it work on your VW?
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RustyLugNut:Older Mercedes Benz Indirect Injection (ID) Diesels can still see significant gains with the addition of HHO even though it may be a mechanical or electro-mechanical injection pump (IP). myoldyourgold:Yes,
RustyLugNut:I cheat by re-machining the IP mounting collar to accept an electro-mechanical actuator that allows me to add or subtract from the standard mechanical advance.
I would be interested in this process. What electro-mechanical actuator do you use? Would love to see some pictures. I do not call that cheating but using your head!!
Custom actuator built in house. I used an old 12v 1.8 degree bi-polar stepper motor on a 10 TPI Acme rod to rotate the necked down injection pump within a bearing collar. The stepper motor is driven through opto-isolators and driving N-channel mosfets by the micro pic MCU. If you are willing to sign a NDA, I'll send you pictures. And using my head? I do this for a living.
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RustyLugNut:This along with a variable output HHO unit provides control over most of the light load and cruise load ranges in which we drive and derive our most useful efficiency gains.
myoldyourgold:This is good. I use the MAP/Pressure sensor to control volume. I will be adding a sensor on vehicles with mechanical injection . Tested this with a mechanical set up which worked and got me going on a new controller.
What volume are you controlling? HHO I presume? What sensor? What controller? Digital electronic?
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RustyLugNut:I use the simple and common 16F84 Micro-controller as my core and use a simple 3D map to process the input of air flow (rpm), load request (resistive wire wound element as a throttle position sensor) and boost pressure to adjust in simple step wise fashion, the timing and HHO flow. Depending where in the map you find yourself, we have measured efficiency gains of as little as 7%( full throttle) and as much as 80% ( just off idle, throttle tip in) using Brake Specific Fuel Consumption as our measure (BSFC).
Even highly efficient modern 3, 5 and 7 injection pulse hi-pressure common rail direct injection (DI) diesels can see as much as 30% decrease in BSFC at specific map points with the addition of HHO and injection timing being the only variable change. At least this is the case with the Mercedes Trucks we have tested on.
myoldyourgold:This is very good for just HHO. Are you happy with 30% which could be only 2.5 MPG gain, give or take some on most 12-15 liter diesels.
Understand that this is a gain at specific map points. Over all efficiency will be in all likelihood, less. Yet, a few percent gain can help a trucking firm with trucks that drive 100,000 kilometers a year.
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RustyLugNut:20 standard liters per minute (SLPM) applied to a 14 Liter Class 8 Diesel does net efficiency returns. That is a small amount of HHO in comparison to the engine air flow needs. But it shows you the advantage diesels have in utilizing Hydrogen augmentation. If you can create the same conditions in a spark ignited gasoline engine, you can see tremendous gains. This also hints on how simple Smack Type generators can produce significant gains while complex mutli-plate generators can see little to none.
Oh, and just a quick question on your Mercedes Benz Diesel. What year is it. What model, engine and what IP model? And HOW did you LEAN it?
myoldyourgold:1984 Mercedes 300SD. OM617 The best of the old Mercedes at least in California. After this year more smog junk to deal with. Water injection, negative ion generator, HHO and a number of other proprietary things. I send the Bosh pump to India to be worked on by a friend of mine that has the equipment and does this as a local business. I only have to pay for shipping but lucky for me it has been sent back and forth with people that are traveling. I have had it done 9 times over the past 15 years to get it in the sweet spot, matching the HHO I am injecting. We are working on a project together so the amount of reduction is proprietary for now. It is so tied to the volume of HHO being injected, and all the other modifications that have nothing to do with HHO, that it would make no sense by itself. It will barely pull its own weight without HHO and the other enhancements. Injection timing is retarded but because I did not have access to a good diesel timing light when I set it up I can only guess at how much and so really have no idea because of the injector nozzle pressure being changed which also changes timing. The turbo is also cranked up a little. Retarded timing results in a lower peak firing pressure and temperature. It has to have the right amount of HHO to bring this back up or you will have a lot of smoke but very low NOX. LOL I do not use the drip method for timing. I now have access to a Snap-on diesel pulse adapter and the light to go with it. My 300SD has been retired for over a year now. The pump has been sent for a complete rebuild with a lot of new parts needed, not just fuel settings and I do not remember the model off hand. It has over 500,000 miles on it and started to give me some trouble. I am not sure what I am going to do with the car. It needs a lot of TLC on a lot of little things but has a strong engine and trans. I have been looking for a mint 240D or a 300D but they must have manual transmissions. I will try and duplicate things adding a new controller to do further development and for a daily driver. There is not many of these in the US and the 300D has to have been imported by someone. The ones I have found have been way to costly if they are in the condition I am looking for.
I have 7 Mercedes. 3 of them are 1984 300SD's. I have rebuilt 2 of the OM617's and am working on a third. I have also rebuilt and modified the injection pumps. I am still unclear HOW your India Connection could LEAN the fuel mix of one of the simplest of diesel systems.
Lowered emission - pollution levels (Diesel)
Quite new here, I tried HHO addition into my 2.6 lit turbo diesel (Mahindra-India, Scorpio CRDe) and the pollution levels reduced very much.
1) Without HHO: Average values for 5 readings
Hatridge smoke units(HSU) = 26.2, absorption coeff (K) = 0.7
2) With HHO: Average values for 4 readings
HSU = 13.6 & K= 0.33
That is a 48% reduction...!!!!
A rough estimate of milleage showed a gain of 50% ie 18 Kmts/Lit with HHO against 12Km/Lit without HHO. This test was based on the vehicles voice-alert (when it goes on reserve) and yet to be confirmed with the tank-full method.
Note: However, I have seen a minor issue in my set-up, ie when the engine gets cold the electrolyte from reservoir is sucked into the bubbler. I know it is due to gas contraction when cold but how can we prevent this ?.
Set-up:- 16plate 304SS, 3 stack drycell (16 sq/inch per stack +/- 15%), 1.5mm gap between plates, 1lit/min @ 17~20 amps, 15 tablespoons of KOH/1.5 litres of distilled water. Using a CCPWM 30amps. The 1.5 electrolyte reservoir-out is connected to a bubbler (250ml, 8 inches high) through NRV-1 (non-return valve) and passes to a fuel-filter (to trap any liquid particles), then to an NRV-2 and into the air intake before the air-filter.
Will a third NRV between reservoir and NRV-1 that is ported to atmosphere (intake only) using a "Tee" solve this? or will it bring more problems?.
Any help is appreciated.
RTJ Nair
