any thoughts on this? does it look decent?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWM-P...Q5fAccessories
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any thoughts on this? does it look decent?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWM-P...Q5fAccessories
I bought one of these and I not sure of how well it works. It worked, yes, but I find its output suspect.
It is the first that I've bought, so I don't really have anything to compare it to. I'd be interested in what feedback you get on this.
Found this site with the same unit as a DC motor control. I don't think that unit is really designed with hho optimization in mind...?
http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=581
Hi Guyz:D
I have a 30amp PWM with Ajustable Frequency Control that I have not yet attatched to my Cell. Will the feature on this PWM help more in controling Voltage, Amperage Ect Ect Ect & help in fine Tuning my Cell's output?
Hope to hear from sombody soon as I want to hook the divice up to my Cell soon. Many Thnx. E"!":D
Erik,
The PWM will allow you to dial in the amount of amps your cell is pulling. It works by rapidly switching the ground of the cell off and on. One benefit is that you can put maximum strength electrolyte in your cell and just dial in how many amps you want. KOH at 28% by weight will give excellent freeze protection as well as make your device more efficient by reduced resistance.
Russ.
How about feedback on these PMWs
I just want an inclosed PMW.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=300305483559
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=220390962419
Im not sure if voltage adjustment has any benifit
Hi, okay, i'm biased because I sell the first one you listed.
But to answer your question the voltage adjustment is a sensitivity knob. The only adjustment this makes is the voltage the unit turns on or off at.
The purpose of this adjustment is pretty much the main difference between my PWM and everyone else's.
The idea for a voltage based switch came to me when I was doing an install on this persons car. I had placed the cell in a difficult to reach place and then started looking under the hood for a power connection. I mused wouldn't be easier if I could just connect the cell to the battery. I know this would have no control as it would be on all the time. So then the thought came to me "what if I could connect this to the alternator". The idea being that when the alternator energized I knew the engine would be running, then I could turn on the cell. Well I didn't know enough about alternators so I took another approach. Why not measure the car's voltage when it was running and then when it wasn't. I noticed that it was about 13VDC when the engine was off and about 14VDC when it was running.
So the idea then became to develop a simple circuit that could turn the cell on when the car was running, and off when it was off again. That would make installing these things 10x easier. Just hook it up to the battery and then the cell, done. No more trying to run wires through the firewall or figuring out which wires to tap to get power.
So the voltage switch circuit was borne. However another interesting side effect was discovered. Some times when HHO Cells draw too many amps the indication that there is a problem is your systems overall voltage drops. Left unchecked, you can burn out your alternator. Well this can happen fast, and if you aren't paying attention, you will be paying for a new alternator.
This circuit shuts the cell off so you wont damage your alternator. The constant current feature of the PWM is virtually the same as ZFF and Shane's PWM's as seen on this forum, with a few other mods as well.
The reason I use a plastic case is 2 fold. My first PWM was an all aluminum design like ZFF. The case got so hot it burned my fingers. The idea of an aluminum case is simply to have the case act as a passive heat sink. However the fact that it is metal means when you install it in the vehicle it can easily short out if it touches anything metal that is grounded. So wrapping it with tape isn't a good idea either as it wont dissipate heat well. I then decided the MOSFET is the only thing that needs a heat sink, so I moved it to the heat sink and put everything else inside a plastic enclosure to keep it dry. Also plastic works as a great insulator, so if you put the case against the metal parts of the car, no problem. Another point is the aluminum case can be destroyed by Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide, both are used as electrolyte in these cells. The studs that mount the heat sink are great places to connect bungees or tie straps to attach this unit easier in the vehicle.
So that is pretty much how this device has evolved. I believe it is the best deal on ebay, and is less than $60. Plus the switch can also turn on your other electronics such as any MAP/MAF or EFIE enhancer you may have. Obviously this makes sense because you don't want them running if your cell isn't, so this power control unit makes sense and HHO mo' betta as we say here in Hawaii. Well I hope that answered some questions as to why everyone using HHO should be using the PCU-2.
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/1/2...5024263_tp.jpg
Here is a link to my store: http://stores.shop.ebay.com/water2ga...__W0QQ_armrsZ1
Wcorless, i did receive your (now mine) PMW. I have to say it is very impressive. I opened it up to see where i could place screws for mounting and i have to say it looks better than what i expected.
Down side It came with the old wiring diagram of the last model but you sent me the new Diagram within hours. The new color coded wiring diagram is awesome. So easy a caveman or even I can do it.
If it performs as good as it looks it really is a super value.
I understand the voltage switch great idea.
Thanks Roland for your kind words. Yes things keep changing here pretty fast, its hard to keep up with everything. I'm real excited about some future designs including a new 200 Amp design, and also a 2 piece design that allows you to control your cell from inside the car. Be on the lookout for that.
Bill
wcorless/biilybuckhi (ebay),
Do you send these at preset amperage draws (20 amps)?
Also, how long of a wait to ship?
Roland, any feedback from your operation yet?
bigjim56
Well the shipping time has varied from 4 days to two weeks. Depends when you order one, and our inventory status.
I can have it set for a certain amperage according to my cell, but it might change if the knob gets moved during shipping. Best to buy the version with built in meters.
So, any results on Real world users of these Yet???
I've seen this PWM on Ebay, which looks pretty good. anyone here used one of these?
Cheers,
Martin.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWM-P...ht_4738wt_1187
I got the 30amp version from this guy. my first one worked for a couple hours. I contacted him, he sent me a replacement, and that one lasted a couple hours longer. I gave up on him.
take it how you will.
Do you know what went wrong with them. They look pretty solid...
ALL I can say for certainty is the SPADE connectors area got WOBBELY when they stopped working. I'm no Electrician, so I can't SAY for certain WHY, but I felt with LOOSE Spade connectors, That was the problem. And, without certainty, I felt this was the problem. Maybe I should have persued the issue a little more, but that's how I am. I gave him 2 trys. I wasn't going to give the 3rd. I just bought some Zero Duplicates.... Sorry Shane, they weren't yours....
When you're dealing with currents >5A, you should NEVER use spades. I'm suprised these units use them. Yuck.
The reason why, is(as rcflyn pointed out), they start to get slightly loose due to mechanical stress when a wire gets pulled or moved around. This "looseness" eventually gets to the point where the connection is only making contact in a small area of the spade. Once that happens, the high current starts to produce lots of heat at that loose connection. When the metal gets hot, it's even more likely to get even more loose. The end result can be pretty bad... melted wires or worse, fire.
Zero did it right with the bolts. You really should use lock washers and double nuts to make sure the wire never gets loose.
Phil, I sure wish a statement like that would have been made available for me to read before I made the unwise decision to buy my first PWM.... But, I guess that's what this whole Process is about. Live and Learn. Hopefully, some of us will Learn from others mistakes. which is why I offer my mistakes when ever I can.
Great! Another design decision made - Don't use spade connectors on the dry cell plate connections.
I'm picking that with stainless steel, the electrical connection would be even worse than a brass connection too.
Great info - and possibly a catastrophe avoided.:)
Cheers,
Martin.
Drafty:
Don't use spade designs, PERIOD.
that PWM I was talking about, it was being used on a "WET-CELL" and I was trying to get things set to ONLY run at 20 Amps. I was in a learning stage with PWM's (still am for that matter).
I have since, basically abandoned the Wet-Cells, and concentrating my attention on DRY-CELLS. I am still dabbling on the wet cells, but that's not my main focus.
Basically put, as Phil put it, NO SPADES. I know I won't encounter that issue again. Too bad I didn't know it back then.
There are Plenty of ZERO's Replicas out there. As of Now, I know of none Better (Well, MAYBE Phils, but I'm not sure his "HULK" Is publically available YET)
Do the research, you'll find what you need.
Doing the research...
Learned quite a bit so far - mostly from other people's mistakes. I'm sure I'll make a few clangers before too long though.
Cheers,
Drafty.
I purchased a 35amp True RMS PWM off of ebay, and am very happy with it. with the right KOH/water mix, and fine tuning of the PWM duty cycle, I can keep my cell nice an cool. I spent $35 dollars, and have no complaints. I will need to purchase a larger more heavy duty model (possibly the ZeroFF or the one listed above for 200amps, for the installation of multiple cells on my truck.
Also, I want people to know size DOESNT matter with HHO cells. I have tested 4", 6" dry cells, and small/large wet cells, and have came to the conclusion that size really doesnt matter. The only difference is that larger cells need more amps for the SAME LPM output! This is only true for automotive 12v applications. 120v/240v, applications are different because of the higher voltage/lower amperage.
I purchased a PCU-3 (50 amp)from Bill Corless at Hydrogen Fuel Systems in Waianae HI. After I installed it the PCU-3 would only dial up to around 6 amps and made a high pitched humming noise. I sent it back and after over a dozen emails and almost a month later he shipped the repaired unit back. I had to pay the shipping both ways. When I got it all installed and switched on my HHO system it would only dial/adjust up to 12 amps and then within a few seconds it made the same high pitched hum and went dead.
At that point I no longer wanted to deal with that product (PCU-3) along with the poor communications and slow service. I asked for a refund and Bill Refused and only offered to send me yet another unit. After my experiences with him I no longer wanted to deal with his products. I was more then patient but I have to draw the line somewhere.
So as it stands now Bill Has my money and I have a dead PWM. If Bill decides to step up and do the right and honorable thing I will post that also.
Right now a complaint has been filed with the Better Business Bureau and the State of Hawaii Attorney Generals Office.
If anyone else has had a better experience with a different PWM please let me know. I am back to square one in finding a good 30-50 amp unit. My system is fused for 30 amps and pulls 12 amps during bench testing. I need a 50 amp unit so I can expand or try different systems in the future and not have to buy another PWM.
This message is in response to Brent's post. It is our policy not to offer refunds, but we will bend over backward to make it right for him.
If there was something wrong with any of our PWM's even if the user breaks them by overloading them etc., we fix them or replace them for free.
As far as I know, no other PWM maker makes that offer.
I asked him how many amps his cell was drawing, but he wont answer. He did send it back and we didn't get it repaired right away, that is because we were very far behind on orders, and my apologies to him for that.
I found that he had burned out the two traces on the board. I repaired it and sent it back to him.
He says it burned out again, so I offered to upgrade him to the new PCU-4 which has a much more robust power handling, and that it works 12 - 24 volts. Rather than taking advantage of a real solution, he chooses instead to post negative comments on this forum.
I'm still willing to fix it for free.
Bill
Hydrogen Fuel Systems.
I posted my experiences which are very different then negative comments and will be taking further action with PayPal, the Hawaii Attorney General's Office and the Better Business Bureau.
Given my past two experiences with your product I do not want any more of them. That is no longer a viable settlement offer. It's up to you to do the right thing and refund my money so I can buy another unit from another manufacturer.
Even with a refund I will still be out $42 in shipping. Can you see why I need to cut my loses now?
Many so called sellers on eBay and elsewhere who sell PWMs do not have even a little idea on what they sell and how the PWM modules do work. What they do is simply resell somebody's product.
For example http://www.canakit.com/ has their own 50A PWM that is very affordable in price and well designed. I bought one and tried it. BWT, other guys sell it as their own product on eBay!
Keep in mind that most stock PWM units are Motor Control devices (http://www.canakit.com/electronic-ki...or-controllers) and the mosfets work OK in any duty cycle driving motors, but not close to 0 Ohms HHO Cells that put huge load on the power rail...
Here is the direct link to manufacturer page - http://www.canakit.com/50a-dc-pwm-mo...ontroller.html
Thanks for the link. That looks like it would not be too tough of a kit to tackle. And the board layout would make for easy component replacement. Although I would not use spade connectors for hook up.
On my entire HHO system that I built completely from scratch, the only component that didn't work was the one I did not build (PWM). So a kit sounds like the route I should pursue to cut my failure exposure. Dad and gramps both professed that if you want something done right you gotta do it yourself.
Also, I want people to know size DOESNT matter with HHO cells. I have tested 4", 6" dry cells, and small/large wet cells, and have came to the conclusion that size really doesnt matter
I am curious about your theory on size. Doesn't the size of the plates determine the amount of amps allowed to operated the cell with out excess heat and steam? Isn't the square inches of surface area related to the amount of gas produced? So your saying the bigger cells consume more amps but don't produce any more gas than a smaller one?
Here is an update on my experience with Hydrogen Fuel systems.
Bill Corless agreed to refund my money but wanted to deduct 17% for Ebay commisions and PayPal fees. The problem is that I did not buy it off Ebay and PayPal only charges 2.9%.
After calling him out on his attempt to defraud me he then wanted to charge me the 2.9% PayPal fee.
After what I have gone through dealing with him I was firm that I wanted a full refund. He then went back on his agreement and decided to refuse the refund. Claiming I damaged the unit.
Keep in mind my cell pulls max 12 amps and the PCU-3 claims to be a 50 amp unit. Do the math.
So as it sits now I still do not have my refund or a functioning PWM for my HHO system.
I am posting this so you as potential consumers can read my experiences and decide for yourself if this is a business you want to deal with or not.
I have kept all of our email exchanges to document this whole experience. They are available to anyone that wants to review them.
It is our policy not to refund the purchase price, but to offer either a store credit, or repair or replace any items that are defective at no cost.
I offered to refund Brent only to find that he had damaged the PWM by drilling holes into it and burnt out the board. This is user damage. I replaced the board with a brand new 12-24v unit and offered to send it to him for free. He refused, saying that if I sent it to him, he'd send it back.
Since I cannot resell his damaged merchandise, I am not able to give him a refund. If he had not damaged the item, I would have refunded him. When I told him that, he attempted to extort the money from me by threatening to post negative info on this forum, and to make complaints at various agencies such as the attorney generals office and the better business bureau. I called his bluff.
I don't think the HHO forums is a proper place to discuss this matter, but I felt I needed to set the record straight. We stand behind our products 100%, and will repair it for free even if the user damages it. Brent needs to be more reasonable.
Bill
Hydrogen Fuel Systems
As a business owner you really should learn a little about consumer law. You obviously don't have a clue what slander is even after I explained it to you. I have posted my experiences with you and it can all be verified by our email exchanges. It's up to the readers to interpret my experiences any way they want.
You may want to spend a few bucks and consult an attorney so you can learn what slander or defamation is. News media outlets routinely run stories about consumer experiences with companies.
The four small holes are to mount the unit. Do you suggest not mounting it and just letting it bounce around under the hood? The 8-32 holes in the plastic enclosure have nothing to do with the unit not working.
Your 50 amp PWM did not work on my 12 amp system with a 30 amp fuse. Please explain how that would burn it out? Once again you refuse to address why I would want yet another one of your units when the first two I tried did not work? And it took you a month to replace it?
I do not want to have any further business with you or your products. An ethical business owner would refund a customer's money if the customer is not happy. Instead you keep trying to push your products on me that in my experience do not work.
And yes, these experiences very much belong on a forum. People want to know which companies have good products and stand behind them and which ones don't.
Right now you have my money and refuse to refund it. What you interpret as threats are me exercising my rights as a consumer to seek remedies with private and public consumer protection entities. I will continue to exhaust all legal resources to rectify my situation. Just as you or anyone else would do in a similar circumstance. I am just getting started.
You can stop all of this right now. If you truly do stand behind your products then you should refund a customer that had two of your units in a row fail. A reputation takes a lifetime to build and a only a few seconds to destroy.
UPDATE: I sent the unit back to Bill to get the refund he told me I would get. He now has the unit and my money. I don't even have the option to send the unit out to another business for repair. This situation is moving from a civil dispute to criminal. If he is not going to refund my money then he has a legal obligation to at least send the unit I purchased back to the owner.
http://hydrofuelsys.com/cubecart/ima...-angle-500.jpg
We've been in the PWM market for over 2 years now. We have gone through many design changes as some of you know, and the PCU-3 has been the backbone of our company. We've literally sold thousands of units now. We've had some problems over the years, but those problems have shown us how to improve the product. Brent Finnigan has been the exception when it comes to problems. He says he only was running 10 amps or something yet he burned out the traces on our unit twice. The first time on the negative side, which we repaired and sent it back to him, at no charge. The second time the trace on the positive side was burned out. At this point we decided to upgrade him to the new PCU-4 12-24 volt model that can handle a wider range of power. I felt this would be more than adequate solution for Mr. Finnigan. We purchase our inventory with the money from our orders, and our money is tied up in parts. That is why we cannot refund products, but offer repairs or replacements. He refused our new upgrade offer so he has given us no real options. The unit he sent back cannot be resold as new, so we cannot give him his money back. We are a small company, and for Brent to play hardball and demand this and that, normally we try to serve our customers, but we told him our policy and he threatens us with consumer complaints, to the BBB etc. Maybe most businesses he does business with cave in under that kind of pressure, but for me, its the principle of the thing. If you try to threaten me or my business with negative comments on public forums or with complaints to the BBB or the state attorney generals office, you are attacking our business, and we wont negotiate with someone who is attacking us. You don't win any brownie points when you are doing that. Personally I am offended by his tactics and I'm sure if some of you found yourself to be the recipient of threats, you probably wouldn't want to work with him either.
link to your shop is broke! but sounds like an ideal unit for what i'm after amp rang from 0 to 30?
The forum members here now have some insight as to how you conduct business and work with customers when there is a problem. They will be able to make a better informed decision as to who they will deal with when it comes to purchasing HHO related products.
I don't need any brownie points but you as a business need all you can get. I have nothing to lose but you have everything to lose by keeping your customer's money after telling them you were going to refund it. That will not serve you or any business well.
If you are going to cut of your nose just to spite your face then you have gained nothing. That has never been considered a sound and profitable business practice.
Another manufacturer has already read my experiences here and has made me a very fair offer. He will get my money and most likely end up with someone who will actively promote his product not only here but on other forums. A person who will promote it to his several friends who will be either building or buying an HHO cell system. They are watching to see how well mine does before jumping in on their own system. I will be the person they come to find out which products to buy.
My FaceBook page has a lot of questions from a lot of people about the pics and videos I have posted about my system in progress. I invite you to see it for yourself. I invite you to ask each one which business they will be purchasing their components from.
That will be a lot of potential lost profit for you. Far more then the $85 you refuse to refund me. Far more then what you will get by fixing my unit you still have and selling it again to someone else as a refurb.
That's a sad commentary on who you are, to treat a customer who chose you first to buy your product. I hope it was worth it for you.
If you do refund my money I will post that here also. You have my word on that. Otherwise I have gone on record with my experiences here and anything more would just be going in circles. This matter will be turned over to a collection agency Mon AM.
Update: A business registry search on Hydrogen Fuel Systems indicates the business is not in good standing.
See for yourself.
http://hbe.ehawaii.gov/documents/bus...Number=77107C5
This is Dan, the owner of Hydrogen Boost Now.com.
After reading this thread, I thought I would point out some things about the PWM's on Ebay.
First off..A lot of the PWM's on ebay are junk, just cheap china boards with small cheap mosfets sold at a cheap price.
Lets look at some of the PWM's on Ebay....
The new P-O-S is the OGO China PWM.. This comes in a nice box but the PWM is a minimum spec PWM with no real features....Cheap Sh!!
2) Then there are the Max line of PWM's:
The 066 - 067 - 068
These are made in Taiwan not China and are a little better than the China PWM.
The 067...is a strong PWM with a reinforced board and 2 spaid connectors for each power wire. These have proven to work just fine and can run up to 35 amps with a fan.....This is the one by Bactronics but please do not buy from him... he is a A** h*** and will charge like $10 for shipping, no box and no fan.
The Max 068 has 6 mosfets and is quite strong and can do a real 50-55 amps with a fan.
The Max 066 is the cheap one and can run at 22 amps.
Zerro fossil fuel has been working on a board for about 2 years and has let others copy his board and sell it.. This is the PIC above this post.
Please beware....
The Zero Fossil fuels PWM does not use True Pulse Width Modification.
This PWM, when in current limiting mode, switches to anolog and will waste all of the power not being used by the cell and the PWM will get very hot.
Too bad so many people have used this design. It is only good for small loads.
There are 1 or 2 new PWM's on ebay. One looks like another Zero Clone but is very well built in a nice small box.We will buy one to test to see if the PWM is working correctly.
Ill do some testing with your PWM. I may not have a ton of posts on this sight, but know pretty much everyone on the forum and do allot of building and cell testing just about every weekend. Let me know I check in at lease once a day on this forum.
"D"