-60 degrees issue??

I am a newbie to HHO generators and have a small puzzle to solve. I am putting a HHO system on my 2008 Tundra here in Fairbanks Alaska where -60 is not uncommon and have to figure out how to keep the water from freezing while the vehicle isn't running. I was thinking of housing the system in an insulated box, such as the box that Mike from hhoconnection built just insulated, then heat the inside of the box with a light bulb but I wanted to see what the pros would do to solve this issue I a have.

I live just outside of Atlanta Ga. so there's not much freezing here. But this last winter my cell froze and cracked the casing. After replacing the case, I used 90% isopropyl alcohol to drop the freezing point, and as of yet it doesn't seem to create any adverse effect to the cell or electrolysis process. However as I use some water to run my system, I have to add 1 pt. to every 5 gallons. I just keep it in a air tight water jug and top off my holding tank when needed.

I purchased a car that came from up north that had a block heater on it to keep the coolant from freezing. I don't see why one of those couldn't be used in the same manner for a cell or tank, possibly with a small fish tank pump to keep the system circulating when not in use.

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Originally Posted by Madsceintist

I live just outside of Atlanta Ga. so there's not much freezing here. But this last winter my cell froze and cracked the casing. After replacing the case, I used 90% isopropyl alcohol to drop the freezing point, and as of yet it doesn't seem to create any adverse effect to the cell or electrolysis process. However as I use some water to run my system, I have to add 1 pt. to every 5 gallons. I just keep it in a air tight water jug and top off my holding tank when needed.

I purchased a car that came from up north that had a block heater on it to keep the coolant from freezing. I don't see why one of those couldn't be used in the same manner for a cell or tank, possibly with a small fish tank pump to keep the system circulating when not in use.

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Block heater and small fish tank pump is a good idea ..

Here in Canada, the winter temperature is approximately -25 °C. I use 20% NaOH, and I wrapped my cell in a thermofoil. No problem freezes but I must admit that - 60°, wow it freezes me in mind

My solution for this is full strength electrolyte, PWM and have gone to locating my reactor much closer to the exhaust manifold and use a removable heat shield with a 3 inch flexible plastic pipe the goes to the front of the car for added air flow in the summer. Plug the pipe during the winter. I am well aware of having to remotely start my car from in a store every hour and let it run for a timed 20 minutes to keep things warm enough so when I get back to the car it is not so cold it will not start or even if it does it shortens the life of your engine by bunches!! It also keep the wife happy not having to get into a cold car. LOL Below -20º C to -60º C is a challenge. Unless you have a heated garage you have to have her plugged in. I use a 1500 watt heater too not one of those mickey mouse 300 watt ones. Extreme conditions require extreme solutions. LOL

Thanks for all your ideas. One thing that I am assuming is that the HHO Cell itself will be enough to keep everything from freezing while its running. My question is how long does it take for your cell to get to its hotest temp and what is that temp for you. I'm hoping to be running a 31 plate cell from green fuel running at 40 Amps

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Thanks for all your ideas. One thing that I am assuming is that the HHO Cell itself will be enough to keep everything from freezing while its running. My question is how long does it take for your cell to get to its hotest temp and what is that temp for you. I'm hoping to be running a 31 plate cell from green fuel running at 40 Amps

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An efficient reactor runs somewhere between 80º F and and 110º F. My reactor will follow ambient if it is over 90º F with a little time lag. In -20º F with the reactor close to the exhaust the reservoir well insulated, only little air from outside, and the radiator totally blocked, it takes a good 20 minutes to get to 90º F after the engine is warmed up. You can use HHO instead of starting fluid but should let the engine warm up to operating temperature before you use it full time. Short runs in extreme cold has little use other than being used as a starting fluid. If you do use it as a starting help it must be done right our you could cause problems. Your reactor that is a 6 stack with just 4 neutrals in each stack will get hotter much faster and have a totally different heat curve. Even though it will not be the most efficient it might work OK in extreme cold weather because of it being a hot box. You will have to experiment with it. You might want to brake it up and make multiple smaller better flowing reactors and run them in parallel.

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Originally Posted by myoldyourgold

An efficient reactor runs somewhere between 80º F and and 110º F. My reactor will follow ambient if it is over 90º F with a little time lag. In -20º F with the reactor close to the exhaust the reservoir well insulated, only little air from outside, and the radiator totally blocked, it takes a good 20 minutes to get to 90º F after the engine is warmed up. You can use HHO instead of starting fluid but should let the engine warm up to operating temperature before you use it full time. Short runs in extreme cold has little use other than being used as a starting fluid. If you do use it as a starting help it must be done right our you could cause problems. Your reactor that is a 6 stack with just 4 neutrals in each stack will get hotter much faster and have a totally different heat curve. Even though it will not be the most efficient it might work OK in extreme cold weather because of it being a hot box. You will have to experiment with it. You might want to brake it up and make multiple smaller better flowing reactors and run them in parallel.

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That helps a lot thank you. I didn't know that it was bad to run your reactor 100% at cold start up temps. With my 2008 Tundra 4.7L I don't need any help from a type of starting assistance at cold temps; HHO or starting fluid. When you start your vehicle up at cold temps at what percent do you run your reactor; 100% being your max Amp input and LPM output

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That helps a lot thank you. I didn't know that it was bad to run your reactor 100% at cold start up temps. With my 2008 Tundra 4.7L I don't need any help from a type of starting assistance at cold temps; HHO or starting fluid. When you start your vehicle up at cold temps at what percent do you run your reactor; 100% being your max Amp input and LPM output

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It is not necessarily bad it just does very little and confuses the computer. My whole system is connected to a thermostat switch so nothing changes or comes on until the engine reaches a determined temperature. Starting fluid is not necessary in most gas vehicles but with -60º F diesels need a little help if outside. The reactor coming on for a little does two things, makes a little HHO (works like starting fluid) and warms up the batteries so when you hit the starter she fires right up. Cold batteries just do not have very good cranking amps. A timed switch would work real good for this. If you are using an EFIE then you do not want to start leaning out before the engine is warmed up. Also the computer goes out and does some checks and if it doses not like what it sees it can cause you problems. During warm up let it run stock and then turn on the HHO system. I will have a controller that takes care of all of this some time in the future.

The maximum load is a tuning problem and has to do with your fuel to HHO to HP needed to generate the HHO. When that is just right for your vehicle and average driving, (unless you have the ability to very the HHO based on the load of the engine) then you get the best gains. You can not state a given amp draw because reactors are not all equal. Some take a lot more amps to make 1 LPM comepared to others. The average good bipolar reactor makes about 1 LPM in 15 amps. One thing you can do is turn off at idle. This requires a more complex set up to work seamless. I hope that helps.

Carter

This is what I've come up with to test to keep my HHO Generator running through -60 F. I'm going to build a box that will house everything that will be well insulated. I'm going to run normal electrolyte through the generator. Inside the box I'm going to have two thermometers. One thermometer to run a 120v heating system and another to run a 12v heating system. The 120v heating system will be the primary system where as the 12v will be a back up system that will kick on when power is not supplied to the 120v system. (Two big 100amp hour batteries running $235 each with a $90 10amp smart trickle charger.. Haven't decided if this back up system is worth the investment) I'm building my own heater because I beleive a normal space heater you plug into the wall would ignite Hydrogen in the case of a leak. I'm going to use a 100w Oil Pan Heating Pad adhered to the bottom of the Heatsink with a CPU sized brushless fan mounted to the top of the heatsink. It's a pretty simple idea that I don't think would ignite a hydrogen leak. If I decide to go ahead with the 12v system in going to run the same type 120v heating pad with the 12v battery using an inverter to get the Voltage. Let me know what you think of this idea

So I have slightly changed my heating system. Both systems will still be on there own thermometer's. The 12v heating system set lower than the 120v primary heating system. (Another reason I like having a battery powered back up system is so that I don't have to worry about the temperature in the box dropping before the generator has time to heat up)

For my 120v heating system, I will not be using any heat sinks or fans; the heater pads alone will be efficient enough to heat the box.

For my 12v system, I will not be using an AC/DC Inverter to run 120v heating pads; very inefficient do to the 25% power loss with the inverter. :eek: What I will be using is 4 Incandescent 12v 50w Rough Service Vibration Resistant Light Bulbs.

Incandescent light bulbs have a 97.5% energy loss when it comes to producing light. In other words only 2.5% of the energy supplied to the bulb goes to producing light when the other 97.5% of the energy is producing heat; very inefficient light bulbs which is what I want! :D

I also found, depending on how good your insulation is and how cold it is outside, that it takes 50-60 BTUs per square foot to have an efficient heating system. (These stats are for efficiently heating your house in cold weather)

My 120v Heating System will be using 200w producing 682 BTUs.
My 12v Heating System will be using 200w
5w producing light
195w producing 665 BTUs of heat.

Even if the inside of my box is 4 square feet, I highly doubt it'll be this big, I will be producing 165 to 170 BTUs of heat per square foot. So in theory this should be overkill to keep my HHO System warm. :)

BTW I will be using pipe insulation to insulate the supply hose to my air intake. I'm using a drier inside my box to absorb as much moisture as possible but I'm hoping that the pipe insulation will keep the escaping moisture in the hose from freezing.

Once I get everything built and installed I'm going to take a video to show my solution to my -65F -53C issue. I will also post an item to cost list for everyone interested