KOH mix strength, amps versus production

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10-23-2012, 06:00 AM
ydeardorff

KOH mix strength, amps versus production

Hello,
I have built a new cell that is a combination of a dry cell and a wet cell.

I tried using .040" pvc gaskets, but ran into leaks, and internal arcing. So I disassembled the cell to start over with better materials.

I will be using 1/8" EPDM gaskets, and EPDM plates or something akin to it next time.

But what Im trying to figure out, is the best mix strength for my cell once I get it put back together. I typically run 3tspns per gallon of KOH.

With that my 5N3 cell with 6 x 7" plates gave me 18 seconds on a 500ml bottle, @ 22amps, and 13 seconds @ 32amps. This was 13 vdc, and 50 degree electrolyte.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1MM...ature=youtu.be

Does adding to the strength of the electrolyte increase production in direct correlation to the amp draw? Im wanting to make a heater with this cell.
In the above mentioned configuration, I was able to produce a 2 to 3 inch flame and burn some pop cans with my #2 hoke jewelers tipped torch.

Ideally Ill be running a couple of small torch tips heating re-boiler type heat exchangers and passing them through CPU cooling radiators.
Think of it like a big Mr. Coffee maker that produces heat rather than coffee.

I'd like to know if anyone has come up with a standard on KOH mix strength. This would help me in the design to know what amperage, to KOH mix strength would produce the best. My target goal is to run this under 400watts, and less than 30 amps while at full operating temp.

Any help here?
10-23-2012, 06:33 AM
RustyLugNut

So . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

Hello,
I have built a new cell that is a combination of a dry cell and a wet cell.

I tried using .040" pvc gaskets, but ran into leaks, and internal arcing. So I disassembled the cell to start over with better materials.

I will be using 1/8" EPDM gaskets, and EPDM plates or something akin to it next time.

But what Im trying to figure out, is the best mix strength for my cell once I get it put back together. I typically run 3tspns per gallon of KOH.

With that my 5N3 cell with 6 x 7" plates gave me 18 seconds on a 500ml bottle, @ 22amps, and 13 seconds @ 32amps. This was 13 vdc, and 50 degree electrolyte.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1MM...ature=youtu.be

Does adding to the strength of the electrolyte increase production in direct correlation to the amp draw? Im wanting to make a heater with this cell.
In the above mentioned configuration, I was able to produce a 2 to 3 inch flame and burn some pop cans with my #2 hoke jewelers tipped torch.

Ideally Ill be running a couple of small torch tips heating re-boiler type heat exchangers and passing them through CPU cooling radiators.
Think of it like a big Mr. Coffee maker that produces heat rather than coffee.

I'd like to know if anyone has come up with a standard on KOH mix strength. This would help me in the design to know what amperage, to KOH mix strength would produce the best. My target goal is to run this under 400watts, and less than 30 amps while at full operating temp.

Any help here?

Let me understand what you are attempting to do here.

You want to produce HHO, burn it to heat a liquid then transfer the heat through radiators?
10-23-2012, 06:43 AM
ydeardorff

Yes.

For this project I dont need monster flames, only enough to heat the liquid in hand made heat exchangers.

The design uses all of the heat produced from the power supply, generator, and the flame(s).

I have small high temp water pumps to circulate the coolant through the heat exchanger and radiators. The natural thermosiphoning effect will pump the liquid anyway, but the 1LPM pump will just help it move a touch faster.

The heat from the following sources will be used:

Computer power supply
HHO Generator
2 flame to liquid heat exchangers
1 fluid to fluid heat exchanger
Left over heat from the flame

All of this will be directed from outside air, into the plenum to be exited as heat. So this doesn't waste any heat source within the unit.

The hoke jewelers torch tips offer me a stable, usable flame that is small and can run on 1.5 lpm or less.

There has to be a "sweet spot" on the electrolyte mixture. I know every electrolysis cell is different. But I would hope that with all the collective years of knowledge on this forum, that someone would have figured that out.
10-23-2012, 06:59 AM
RustyLugNut

So . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

Yes.

For this project I dont need monster flames, only enough to heat the liquid in hand made heat exchangers.

The design uses all of the heat produced from the power supply, generator, and the flame(s).

I have small high temp water pumps to circulate the coolant through the heat exchanger and radiators. The natural thermosiphoning effect will pump the liquid anyway, but the 1LPM pump will just help it move a touch faster.

The heat from the following sources will be used:

Computer power supply
HHO Generator
2 flame to liquid heat exchangers
1 fluid to fluid heat exchanger
Left over heat from the flame

All of this will be directed from outside air, into the plenum to be exited as heat. So this doesn't waste any heat source within the unit.

The hoke jewelers torch tips offer me a stable, usable flame that is small and can run on 1.5 lpm or less.

There has to be a "sweet spot" on the electrolyte mixture. I know every electrolysis cell is different. But I would hope that with all the collective years of knowledge on this forum, that someone would have figured that out.

. . . your ultimate goal is to heat air. If I have read things correctly.
10-23-2012, 07:07 AM
ydeardorff

Yes it is.

Im not setting any goals like heating my whole home or nothing. Im seeing what can be done with my design. The pumps despite only being 1 lpm may be too much and the coolant may not get warm enough.

I made my copper 1/4" OD coil over a 3/4" copper pipe. I then ran the output to the input on the coil as a big loop. Though it was nothing to get excited about, the coolant got warm pretty quickly (about 5 minutes) with a flame a little longer than the tip of your finger.

Should this design work even decently, my hope is to have it be a maintainer of the heat in the house. Not unrealistically heat the whole home with it. Something I can use to keep the house from dropping into the 40's or 50's at night.

But Im also aware that electrolyte strength should be relative to the plate gaps within the cell. So a cell with 1/16" gaps would need less electrolyte strength than a cell with 1/8" gaps.
But what is the optimum KOH mixture strength in distilled water?
10-23-2012, 08:24 AM
RustyLugNut

I am not sure where you are in your engineering courses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

Yes it is.

Im not setting any goals like heating my whole home or nothing. Im seeing what can be done with my design. The pumps despite only being 1 lpm may be too much and the coolant may not get warm enough.

I made my copper 1/4" OD coil over a 3/4" copper pipe. I then ran the output to the input on the coil as a big loop. Though it was nothing to get excited about, the coolant got warm pretty quickly (about 5 minutes) with a flame a little longer than the tip of your finger.

Should this design work even decently, my hope is to have it be a maintainer of the heat in the house. Not unrealistically heat the whole home with it. Something I can use to keep the house from dropping into the 40's or 50's at night.

But Im also aware that electrolyte strength should be relative to the plate gaps within the cell. So a cell with 1/16" gaps would need less electrolyte strength than a cell with 1/8" gaps.
But what is the optimum KOH mixture strength in distilled water?

But, you must realize the efficiency losses stack up through each step in your system.

Take the power out of the wall, run it through a switching power supply at about 90% efficiency, into an electrolysis generator that is around 60% efficient if we are lucky and into a heat exchange system that might transfer 70% of the heat and . . . you will be lucky to get 1/3 of your energy out as heat.

Look up in-floor radiant heat and realize that is one of the most efficient forms of heat distribution. Then create your hot water from an energy source that is efficient, low cost or renewable. There is another thread on here where BioFarmer and others have links to people running burners with waste motor oil, and other waste streams.

I would suggest looking in the direction of augmenting the WMO burn with HHO. That is where my heating experiments are going. I am blessed with two homes - one along the beach here in semi-tropical San Diego and the other looking up at the ski slopes in Southern California's mountains. The beach home has an awesomely efficient central heat exchange unit - that we rarely if ever use. The much older mountain home has a fireplace. I have resource streams of both WVO ( waste vegetable oil) and WMO (waste motor oil) with which I would like to heat my house and outbuilding shop site.
My powered Kerosene heater does well with Diesel #2, but smokes badly on well filtered and centrifuged WMO. I am going to probably need to heat the oil and augment the combustion - it keeps tripping the CO alarm. My goal is to get it to run so clean it will not trip the CO alarm.
10-23-2012, 11:34 AM
ydeardorff

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

But, you must realize the efficiency losses stack up through each step in your system.

Take the power out of the wall, run it through a switching power supply at about 90% efficiency, into an electrolysis generator that is around 60% efficient if we are lucky and into a heat exchange system that might transfer 70% of the heat and . . . you will be lucky to get 1/3 of your energy out as heat.

My powered Kerosene heater does well with Diesel #2, but smokes badly on well filtered and centrifuged WMO. I am going to probably need to heat the oil and augment the combustion - it keeps tripping the CO alarm. My goal is to get it to run so clean it will not trip the CO alarm.

I understand about the losses. "Everything" has efficiency losses. Im not out here trying to get over-unity, or anything. I just want to see how well I can make this thing work. My 20 y/o Coleman electric central air furnace nearly burns out the bearings on the meter out side when it switches on. There are plenty of HHO heaters out there. Some selling plans, other selling them on the market. So its obvious they work to some degree. Its not about efficiency losses, it whether the thing will work or not. :D

The CO problem is precisely why I like the idea of HHO for heating. Using any kind of oil heating if not done properly can be very dangerous. Some units require you leave a window open due to possible asphyxiation. In that case whats the point. :confused:

Im just interested in the KOH mixture to plate gap ratio if anyone is willing to share.
10-23-2012, 01:07 PM
RustyLugNut

I've given you my advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

I understand about the losses. "Everything" has efficiency losses. Im not out here trying to get over-unity, or anything. I just want to see how well I can make this thing work. My 20 y/o Coleman electric central air furnace nearly burns out the bearings on the meter out side when it switches on. There are plenty of HHO heaters out there. Some selling plans, other selling them on the market. So its obvious they work to some degree. Its not about efficiency losses, it whether the thing will work or not. :D

The CO problem is precisely why I like the idea of HHO for heating. Using any kind of oil heating if not done properly can be very dangerous. Some units require you leave a window open due to possible asphyxiation. In that case whats the point. :confused:

Im just interested in the KOH mixture to plate gap ratio if anyone is willing to share.

Just because you have plans for HHO heaters that work, it doesn't make them sensible if you are using electricity that you buy from the municipality. Use the electricity directly in modern radiant heater, and bypass all the losses.

My CO problem is with my old forced heater. I would use a heat exchanger so you would have no combustion gasses entering the home or enclosed area. This is only logical. I gave it as an example.

I am not sure who your professor's are and what level of engineering you are at and what discipline. Ask them to explain to you thermodynamics and heat flow. KOH mixtures and plate gap ratios will not help you overcome your efficiency losses to any useful degree.
10-23-2012, 02:49 PM
ydeardorff

OK, back on topic.

Anyone have a preferred mix rate?
10-23-2012, 03:01 PM
RustyLugNut

Super saturated solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

OK, back on topic.

Anyone have a preferred mix rate?

It turns out to be about 28% for KOH as your electrolyte. This provides the lowest electrolyte resistance per cell. It also means cell spacing can be increased.
10-23-2012, 03:09 PM
ydeardorff

OK, Are you referring to overall 28% KOH per gallon, or per liter? That's an awfully high concentration.
Wouldn't that high of a percentage eat the plates for lunch, and spontaneously melt all of your wires running the cell? LOL

The highest I have heard anyone running their cells was about 5 or 6 tea spoons per gallon.
10-23-2012, 05:54 PM
RustyLugNut

Please use the search funtion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

OK, Are you referring to overall 28% KOH per gallon, or per liter? That's an awfully high concentration.
Wouldn't that high of a percentage eat the plates for lunch, and spontaneously melt all of your wires running the cell? LOL

The highest I have heard anyone running their cells was about 5 or 6 tea spoons per gallon.

There are numerous posts of people using the 28% KOH (mass percentage) for lower resistance and for better anti-freeze protection.

The reason others use only a few percent KOH is because they are controlling the amperes this way. High resistance low percentage electrolyte reduces the current but is low efficiency.

At this point, I will bow out of this conversation as you have your pre-concieved ideas. Good luck making 30 watts of heat from your 100 watt input.
10-23-2012, 06:40 PM
Madsceintist

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

OK, Are you referring to overall 28% KOH per gallon, or per liter? That's an awfully high concentration.
Wouldn't that high of a percentage eat the plates for lunch, and spontaneously melt all of your wires running the cell? LOL

The highest I have heard anyone running their cells was about 5 or 6 tea spoons per gallon.

28% is 28%, regardless of the quantity. 1 gallon, 1 liter, or 1 million gallons.

That concentration would be for plates that are widely spaced, the closer the plates, the lower the electrolyte concentration will be. Unless your intending on heating up most of your electronics!
10-23-2012, 06:45 PM
ydeardorff

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madsceintist

28% is 28%, regardless of the quantity. 1 gallon, 1 liter, or 1 million gallons.

That concentration would be for plates that are widely spaced, the closer the plates, the lower the electrolyte concentration will be. Unless your intending on heating up most of your electronics!

Nope dont want to do that.

I guess its a trial and error method. Finding the right output, and stable heat. After the cell rebuild Ill be running 1/8" spacers before compression. The total volume of electrolyte is 1 gallon, so It should help me figure out whats needed to run the system.
10-24-2012, 04:51 PM
Madsceintist

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

Nope dont want to do that.

I guess its a trial and error method. Finding the right output, and stable heat. After the cell rebuild Ill be running 1/8" spacers before compression. The total volume of electrolyte is 1 gallon, so It should help me figure out whats needed to run the system.

I would suggest myoldyourgold for some help here, but depending on your target output will depend on the specs you want to build on.
10-26-2012, 02:25 AM
ydeardorff

thats what I was planning. 28% is far higher a mix strength than Id like to go with for an indoor appliance. @28% seems like Id need a pwm with a heat sink on it the size of a small volkswagen.
My latest cell got a MMW of 6 @ 50 degrees electrolyte temp. So that's a good starting point @ 3 teaspoons per gallon. The search function works fine.
I was looking for a mix ratio to plate gap, and cell size, to go along with a pwm duty cycle and frequency.
Never mind I guess Ill just figure this stuff out myself. Sry for bothering the "mentors" LOL
10-26-2012, 07:23 AM
RustyLugNut

Excuse me for butting in again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ydeardorff

thats what I was planning. 28% is far higher a mix strength than Id like to go with for an indoor appliance. @28% seems like Id need a pwm with a heat sink on it the size of a small volkswagen.
My latest cell got a MMW of 6 @ 50 degrees electrolyte temp. So that's a good starting point @ 3 teaspoons per gallon. The search function works fine.
I was looking for a mix ratio to plate gap, and cell size, to go along with a pwm duty cycle and frequency.
Never mind I guess Ill just figure this stuff out myself. Sry for bothering the "mentors" LOL

It was my fault for getting off on the tangent of system viability and efficiency.

If you want absolute electrolysis efficiency, you must reduce the voltage across each cell. Current is needed to produce HHO, but the lower your voltage across each cell, the higher your MMW.

The more concentrated your electrolyte ( up to saturation) the lower your voltage needs to be to drive a particular current. Some electrolytes are more effective than others but it is hard to beat KOH as a common material.

The closer your cell spacing the lower your drive voltage.

The higher your electrolyte temperature the lower your drive voltage.

"Better" electrode plate materials can reduce your drive voltage.

I use true Faraday type cells instead of the through hole "dry cells" or the wet bath arrangements. This means I can optimize a single cell for the current capacity of my power supply. Notice current is largely unaffected by plate area. Just make sure plate area is large enough to keep you in the 0.5amps/cm*cm or less, to keep plating and erosion minimal.

I use 304 tubular stainless electrodes spaced 3mm (1/8") apart. For example: Saturated NaOH electrolyte yields a current/temperature/voltage curve of 5A/25degC/2.6V, 10A/40degC/2.3V and 15A/80degC/2.0V.

These may not conform to other's test numbers, but it allows me to design based on my cell configuration by simply stacking the number of cells to meet my power supply capabilities and the temperature I expect to operate at. This allows you to maximize your MMW.
11-13-2012, 04:26 PM
Stevo

Quote:

Originally Posted by koya1893

Each Mentor should get a Paypal account so when question like this pop up, those asking the question will pay, maybe then the answer will be appreciated. Thing are not appreciated when given freely.

Excellent idea, sir!
11-17-2012, 05:51 AM
RustyLugNut

The value of the answers isn't guaranteed by mentor status.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevo

Excellent idea, sir!

The list of Mentors shows a great variability in the ability to answer questions with lucidity.
11-17-2012, 03:07 PM
Madsceintist

Higher than all mighty............................Speaks. However true or not, to ANY extent !

Can't let a dead horse be ??

Must be feeling lonely ............
11-17-2012, 04:36 PM
Stevo

Funny guy.
11-17-2012, 05:41 PM
RustyLugNut

Thank you . . . thank you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevo

Funny guy.

I'll be here all week!
11-17-2012, 07:11 PM
Stevo

Quote:

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

I'll be here all week!

Alright! Can I sit in the front row so I can see your face while you give the lecture to the class?
11-17-2012, 07:31 PM
RustyLugNut

Are you ready to answer questions when called upon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stevo

Alright! Can I sit in the front row so I can see your face while you give the lecture to the class?

Your homework is to go over to the Ecomodder forum and convince them of the efficacy of HHO in improving the combustion characteristics of current internal combustion engines.