Series cell trouble

[dhho]

Dodger,
I don't think you are at all wrong in your approach.With the experimenting me and my friends have done there seems to be no true constant rules to true series cells.I had or have a simmilar problem but only 2 plates per cell 6 cells and can't get it to draw amps.My cell has been in use for a couple of months and is making a lot more gas than when first made..7to.9lpm.I am not sure that the realy strong solutions don't get better after a small amount of time or plates condition better after time.In conparison my friend is running 6 cell around 1lpm and amps get too high if he mixes too strong a mix.
Don't give up try running for a while ,try 25 to 28 % mix and let it run for a day or so,it might come good.
This may sound unscientific but I too have been frustrated after spending heeps of money,
Regards,
Mos

[timetowinarace]

Timetowinrace,

No need to get huffy, just simply stating what I have found to be true in my own personal experiments. I might also add, just because this forum has deemed it important to put a term, such as newbie, beside a person's name, does not make him the village idiot.(Which is totally dependent on how many posts a person has logged anyway) What I have stated, I will stand behind, The electrolyte only increases the conductivity of the water. If you have experimented and have found out otherwise, please tell me. I can only report on what my very own experiments have revealed, perhaps my lye has losts it's strength or yours is more pure. I am in no way trying to be argumentative, so please don't try to talk down to me. I'm just trying to find out some answers here.

1973dodger

Sorry, my intent was not to be huffy. I can see how it would appear that way.

My use of the word newbie has nothing to do with this forum and how it labels new posters. I am a newbie to electrolysis. I'm quite sure about every one here is pretty new to hho. My point is simple. Most here are experimenting in the garage or whatever. Very few have done any signifacant research. Most of what is "discovered" here is often false, half truth, and many of the mistakes made could be avoided with accurate information.

Don't get me wrong, experimentation is great. The results of that experimentation is good for others to know. However, people like yourself are spending allot of time and money trying to do what has already been done and the information on how to do it is free and easy to understand.

You think the electrolyte concentration is a misconception. Those that have had success, have been doing this for years, have experimented with a PROPER electroyser, say different. The point I was making in my earlier post is that for me, I would base my designs, my spacing, plate area, voltages, everything on what is known by experts rather than us(yes, me included) newbie garage hho enthusiasts.

I often post information that is ignored or not believed. Doesn't matter to me. I do not take credit for much of the information I post. It is from others work. I rely on information that is available from those that have done this for many years with success.

At any rate, you can continue to believe the youtube videos that are mostly bunk and the various garage experimenters and struggle or you can design and build what is known to work. There is allot of misinformation on this forum. 28% lye consentration isn't one of them.

[justaguy]

I have a modified smack version with two cells in series that runs 20 amps on 1/4 teaspoon of koh. The plates are 1/16. I agree with dodger, the closer plate spacing takes less lye. Garage builders or not, that is a fact. Thats why some people use neutrals, to weaken the current between the plates.

[1973dodger]

Timeintowarace,

Thanks for your explanation. My concern I guess, is the high concentration levels of lye. I know when I start up my generator, the fumes coming off my generator are toxic to breath and I understand that the fumes will be cleaned as they go thru the bubbler, but eventually the bubbler will become contaminated. Who actually knows what long term damage can happen to your engine by the effects of the lye. I know many have said the electrolite stays in our electrolizers, but I seriously doubt this. Anyway , this is my reason for the closer spacing and lower concentrations of lye, besides the fact I have noticed no improvements in current after a certain concentration. I say no improvement, I guess I should say it increases a few mili-amps, just not worth the trade off. I too have researched and read reports from the likes of Boyce, and I will certainly have to yeild to his expertise and I can not argue with his results. I just have not been able to duplicate anything he does.

1973dodger

[donnylynn]

A couple of thoughts based on my own experience. Check all your wiring connections.
1) are any of them loose? or are they loosening up after warmed up?
a loose connection will have higher resistance which will lower current. Heat may cause an expansion that causes something to loosen.
2) are any connections corroded? Spilled NAOH on one of my connecting terminals on the outside of my cell. created a corroded coating that acted like a loose connection.
3) pay particular attention to negative terminals. they seem more susceptable to corrosion.

[1973dodger]

donnylynn,

All connection were checked for voltage, all plates have been checked for shorts. The problem, as has been stated in this thread, remains lack of voltage to push enough current through that many cells. All of points are good ones, but all connections have been painstakingkly checked.

1973dodger

[timetowinarace]

I agree that with 1/16 spacing, less catalist can be used. I overlooked that.

But 1/8 spacing has been proven to be the optimum spacing for electrolysis. The 28% lye solution is based on that ideal. If there is a misconception on the forum it is with plate spacing, not electrolyte concentration.

I understand the reasoning behind the 1/16 spacing many here are using. It does help to stop current loss when using neutrals in an open bath. Other than that it will hamper production somewhat. Think of thousands of tiny bubbles. Put all those bubbles in two small spaces, one half as small as the other. The bubbles in the smaller space displace more water and catilist restricting current more than in the larger space.

It may seem to be a minute detail but think about it. I believe your first post in this thread said your system drops a bit of amperage shortly after start up. This cannot happen unless voltage drops(unlikely) or resistance increases. Why would resistance in the cell increase? Bubbles.

May not be the whole problem, but it's something.

[1973dodger]

Timeintowarace,

This is a true statement concerning the spacing. I have tested many versions of single cells with various spacing and have found the amp draw was in relationship with the spacing, but as you state, the bubbles do get in the way of current with the smaller spacing. But I am so far off my mark in current draw and lpm, I think I just have to find a different design or live with the higher amps in using fewer sets in series.

Concerning another topic we have touched on, has anyone considered the effects of sodium hydroxide on aluminum heads, some in this forum may have on their cars. As I have previously stated, I believe some element of our electrolite is released in gaseous form with our hho. (why does breathing the vapors coming off our electrolizers cause us to cough?) I know "zerofossilfuel" has made some reference to this gas as being 'chromium something or other". Common sense tells me with the effects lye has on aluminum, it would be a risky proposition to introduce this to someone's aluminum heads. I think one way to test my therory is to put some aluminum foil in our bubblers to see if some sodium hydroxide is contaminating our bubbler water, in seeing if the aluminum is eaten up. something to carefully consider. I am thinking of swithing to KOH anyway, though I am sure there are side effects to it as well. I have not found it locally, I guess I'll have to order it off the internet.

1973dodger

[DaneDHorstead]

I have a modified smack version with two cells in series that runs 20 amps on 1/4 teaspoon of koh. The plates are 1/16. I agree with dodger, the closer plate spacing takes less lye. Garage builders or not, that is a fact. Thats why some people use neutrals, to weaken the current between the plates.

I have read this thread from top to bottom, and have seen electrolyte concentratin reports from 28%, to as little as 1/4 tsp (although it does not say, in what volume of (distilled?) water).....

Also, I note that many responses use 1/8" spacing (0.125"), while this particular design I reply to, uses 1/16" (0.0625"), and I would add that I use

1 teaspoon (per gallon of distilled water), at a spacing of 1.1 mm (0.0435), which is an approximate 2/3 that of the above mentioned 1/16" gap.

I would note that both Stanley Meyers, and Dave Lawton, as well as others, recomend a 0.045" gap, which is only 0.001 off the gap I use.

Everything has tollerance, and with such minute measurements, getting the exact gap control is difficult (but not entirely impossible).

What I don't understand, is how the catalyst ratio can vary to the extent that is reported?

With my 0.045" gap I use three neutrals, between each positive and negative plates (17 plates/16 cells), and I produce right at 0.9 LPM, per generator (3 generators in use). +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+

Note that I have experimented up, and down with electrolyte levels, at the expense of both production and heat, and I have found that even an additional 1/4 tsp of KOH (per gallon) causes a drastic spike in heat.

I also experimented with different configurations, reading comments of others, and decided to do a +NNNNN-NNNNN+ design, but had only the slightest dribble of production (about 1 liter every 6 min, using the same 1 tsp/per gal ratio).

What I read supports the idea that the smaller the gap, the less electrolyte is needed. And in truth, the Myers application, didn't use any electrolyte.

For shitzngiggles I am having some spacers made for me which are 1 mm (0.039"), but that will take time.

[DaneDHorstead]

I should note a slight corrction to the gap measurement, as properly being a 0.0017" difference, where I stated 0.001", as compared to the Meyers ideal gap of 0.045"