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Thread: How Do I Separate Hydrogen from Oxygen?

  1. #31
    JojoJaro Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gizzy View Post
    This sounds like the perfect world. No co2 emmisions. No more acid rain and so on.... If I'm not mistaken, it takes o2 to make and create combustion. So we should know how amazingly explosive hho is. But my thought is...In a tank or container tightly sealed were there is no o2 confined, it won't explode when a spark is introduced it, will not explode internally only when re-leasted into an o2 atmoshere.
    According to the PDF, Hydrogen concentrations below 4% and higher than 75% relative to o2, will not ignite. If you can store H2 at concentrations above 75%, it will not explode inside the tank no matter what sparks you may have inside it.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
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    Pensacola, Florida
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    130
    I understand. Thanks. So basically if you had hho in one container and o2 in the other and then control the release combined mixture. Sorry I got lost for words.

  3. #33
    JojoJaro Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gizzy View Post
    I understand. Thanks. So basically if you had hho in one container and o2 in the other and then control the release combined mixture. Sorry I got lost for words.
    No, you have H2 (not HHO) in one container and release it. The o2 in the air will be sufficient to explode the H2 you release. You do not have to carry o2, there's enough in the air.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Pensacola, Florida
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    130
    Thanks. That was my thoughts...

  5. #35
    Smith03Jetta Guest
    The reason why I want to store O2 is because the higher concentration of O2 present in the Fuel Cell (Electricity making cell) the more electricity is created. Ambient air will make electricity with hydrogen in a fuel cell but pure oxygen and hydrogen mixed in a fuel cell will be awesome.

  6. #36
    countryboy18 Guest
    i think i got it. i did a test today using H2O and very little 34% HCL. when i turned on the power to my cell there was no production of O oxygen on the + terminal. there was only production on the - terminal. the only down side of this reaction is you are making CL "chlorine" in the water. your normal tap water will turn into chlorine after some time. but it pulls 12 amps with just 2 tablespoons of HCL in 1 gal of water. i will do some lpm tests to find out how much HHO or maybe just H i am producing. if i am wrong i will gladly take off this post but if i am right hopefully i wont die to soon before i can see my car run really good. thanks.

  7. #37
    Smith03Jetta Guest
    When you mix hydrochloric acid HCL with water you get chlorine and hydroxonium or oxonium cations. Those cations are made up of 3 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen. These cations are positively charged and will be attracted to the negative electrode (Normally the Hydrogen Electrode) only.

    Electrolysis of these ions can possibly release a hydrogen atom and leave a water molecule remaining. The other possibility is that a hydrogen is released followed by a splitting of the H2O molecule. That would result in twice the volume of Hydrogen gas being released and an negatively charged oxygen ion being released into the water. That negatively charged oxygen ion would then be attracted to another positively charged Oxonium Cation. When combined that could make Hydrogen Dihydroxide Ion H3O2.

    This new negatively charged ion is a 3 dimensional ion that uses proton exchange to stay together. This proton exchange produces a harmonic vibration. This also produces heat during the proton exchange.

    What all this means to me is "The cell will be getting hot pretty fast". It will make a bunch of hydrogen though.

    The bad thing is that it will produce a LARGE volume of Chlorine gas. It is toxic and can't be separated from the Hydrogen gas inside the electrolyzer. This chlorine gas will be pumped into your engine.

    What you are basically doing is going the long way around to make Hydrogen Gas and Chlorine gas from Hydrochloric Acid. The atomic mass of the H20 is pretty much left alone.

    It would be very easy for the raw HCL to get into your engine causing metal damage. Also the Chlorine gas could recombine with the Hydrogen gas to make Pure HCL inside your engine. HCL is also commonly known as Muriatic Acid.

    It's sort of like Altoids Mints. It is a curiously strong acid.

    One of the cardinal rules of HHO is to avoid anything containing Chlorine Atoms. For good reason!

  8. #38
    Smith03Jetta Guest
    I have been emailing a manufacturer in Germany. He is suggesting some membrane material that will hold up to the alkaline and high temperature environment in a cell. As soon as I get some of this material in-hand I will build a cell that will allow separation of Hydrogen from Oxygen.

    Again, I'm entertaining the idea of using a Pelican case for this experiment. I am proposing cutting out a diaphragm that is the same diameter as the outside rim of the seal on the Pelican case. I will then get a thin but sturdy plastic and make a frame for the diaphragm. I may put some framework on the frame to help make the diaphragm more sturdy. I can then sandwich the thin diaphragm frame in between the lid gasket of the Pelican case. Shut the case lid and you've got yourself a watertight diaphragm. Since a larger volume of Hydrogen is produced it is a good idea to put the negative electrode on the larger of the two cavities now created by the diaphragm.

    I will draw up a design for the diaphragm frame for everybody to see. In the meantime please look at these photos of how well a pelican case held up in a pretty bad fire. The guy who owned this particular Pelican case had a fire in his shop that totally destroyed his Lathe and most of the stuff in the general area. I'm guessing we don't have to worry about high temperatures any more.

  9. #39
    Smith03Jetta Guest
    Pelican just came out with a new style case. It is a low profile case that's just the right size for two plates separated by a diaphragm. Take a look-see at the case and the plate drawing that I'm proposing to use to separate Hydrogen from Oxygen.

    This unit will not be used in a car. It will be hooked up to a solar array and be used to create Hydrogen and Oxygen separately for storage in tanks for future use.

    After the successful storage of the two gases I will build or purchase a fuel cell to create electricity.

  10. #40
    Smith03Jetta Guest
    Ok, I've got a question for you engineers out there. If I build a cell that produces Hydrogen on one side and Oxygen on the other, I will have to control the pressure on both sides to keep the diaphragm from being damaged by the pressure/vacuum created by the pumps used to pressurize the gas into my cylinders.

    My ideas call for both sides of my Electrolyzer to have pressure valves installed that will maintain a constant pressure in both sides of the cell. Past the pressure valves the individual gases will go out to a collection cylinder with a pressure switch set to some specific pressure, always lower than the pressure of the electrolyzer. When the pressure reaches the required amount a pump will turn on. The pump will move the gases out of the collection cylinder into the storage tanks. The pump will turn off when the pressure reaches a pre-determined minimum pressure. The idea is to maintain a constant positive pressure in the electrolyzer cell but to only turn on the pumps when the gas pressure in my output lines reaches a specified point.

    It's my idea that this kind of cell design will allow for collection and storage of hydrogen and oxygen without damaging the internal membrane that separates the two gases during the electrolysis process.

    Now I'm asking for some input from you guys. What internal pressure in the cell would be high enough so that a small electric pump would be able to operate at a lower pressure range. I've seen one setup at 30 psi.

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