H2O Fuel Enhancer

[Painless]

With respect to the aquarium pump, I tend to agree with Ian, but I did think of that and looked for one. Couldn't find one that worked with 12V anyway. Now, the bilge pump sounds like an interesting idea, will look into it. Thanks!

On the subject of a pump that will withstand electrolyte and work on 12v, some people are getting good results with this one:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w..._357081_357081

RadGenH2O on youtube uses one.

[DaneDHorstead]

Seems like the bilge pump would have the same problem as the aquarium pump, designed for fresh or salt water and longevity pumping KOH would be questionable. We're also talking about a total of maybe 2 gallons of fluid max, the bilge pump might be too high volume for our needs. A small pump that does 2 or 3 gallons a minute with 1/4 or 3/8 fittings would be ideal. Hard to find though.

Ian

Ian / JavierF;

I don't wish to be argumentitive, but in reality at least some electrolytes are similar to salt.

(In fact many people use salt water, for Hydrogen generators)

Sodium Hydroxide for instance. Sodium is salt, and the pumps are designed for use in salt water.

And as to locating the devices, I long ago, decided to locate everything except the MAP enhancer, and on off switch, in the cargo area, of my SUVs.

I run a #2 copper wire (capable of 100 Amps), under the car frame, with the HHO tube, which carries the vapors to the engine. Some people put them in the trunk, or in the bed of a pickup.

I planned it to be able to run 4 generators if necessary (all under 25 amps peak), but found I was geting 3.6 LPM from the combined 3 gens.

Now, I have removed them to experiment (on the bench) with different plate configurations, in an attempt to further reduce Amp draw, while trying to maintain, or increase output.

So far, I have not had the need for a cooler, but I may go there, as I also may add another gen.

[DaneDHorstead]

Ian / JavierF

I agree with Painless as to the link for the pump he provided. It is a little pricy, as comparred to a cheap aquarium/bilge pump, but it also is much more durrable.

I should also have noted previously, that aquarium pumps are built to be used in salt water tanks, as well as freshwater tanks (same for bilge pumps).

Understand that there will be many opinions, and deviations on ideas provided in the forum, as that is exactly what a forum is.

I, at least, don't expect everyone to agree, I just toss ideas out there for rebuttal.

To kind of kick the cyber tires.

[Roland Jacques]

DaneDHorstead:
Roland: I have built a circulating system like you mention. However, haven't been able to have the electrolyte circulate fast enough. Pressures tend to level off and prevent a good circulation. However, I'll give it another try and see what happens.

Thanks guys for your comments and suggestions.

I’m sorry I may have misunderstood. I am not sure why you want the solution to circulate fast. I do it so it keeps the cell toped off, so really no need for fast circulation.
You are right, the way I described it, it will not circulate fast. It probably only moves 1-2 gallons an hour. (Just keep the HHO discharge hose always angled going up)

[DaneDHorstead]

Faster circulation (especially into, and through a larger cooler/tank), will do two things........

It will cool faster, and it will aid in causing the bubbles to come off of the plates.

It's not that heat isn't generated, but it is better dissipated, through a larger resivoir, especially if it is aided, with ice, and cool water.

The resivoir allows an expanded volume of liquid area, for the heat to exchange to, rather than containing the hot liquid to a small unit, and heat is exchanged through the vinyl tube, which separates the electrolyte solution, from regular tap water, and ice.

If tightly wound, how much vinyl hose could you coil into a gallon sized container, without kinking the tube? You don't even have to use a gallon container, as you could easilly wrap the tube into a spool, like it was rope, and place it in a container like a large PVC pipe, with perforated walls, for water/heat transfer.

Because heat rises, the majority of heat, will escape upwards (which could be vented), and cooler water surrounds the coils, from the sides.

Propperly set up, you can drain the melted ice away through a valve, and release it to the ground, below. Because the liquid volumes are separate, you are only dumping regular tap water, onto the ground.

Yes! All of this takes space, that is not available under the hood, but there are ways to accomodate it.

It is easy to replenish the tap water, and resupply ice if needed.

We all have empty plastic bottles laying around, that can be frozzen, to maintain a cheap supply of ice, and with ample Ice supply, temps could be held under control for very long trips, at little to almost no cost.

A one gallon milk/water bottle, could hold a very long coil of vinyl hose, with added water in it, to aid the cooling process. Surround that bottle, with more bottles of solid ice, and a water bath (all inside a cooler, with a lid).

[javierf]

Painless: thanks for the link. Looks like a possible option.

DaneDHorstead: the problem with KOH solution (or NaOH if you decide to use that) is that it's too corrosive, much more than salt water in an aquarium. Not sure if an aquarium pump would last, but I guess there's only one one to find out...

With respect to the pumps, using a low KOH concentration electrolyte would help prevent any damage to the pump, and that's what I'm aiming at right now, trying to keep a low concentration KOH and maintaining current flow adequate. This makes it a lot less dangerous to handle and less caustic to the entire system's components.

I think using ice to cool the system is not practical at all. A think just by circulating the electrolyte through a larger container would dissipate the heat enough, since raise in temp in my tests has been rather slow, but I need to be able to control it and keep it as low as possible. I'm not sure circulating only 1 gallon/hr will do the trick though.

A high volume pump should be no problem since we can just control the current and make it work at a lower rate. For example, if it's a 12v pump and you make it work at 6V, it'll still work fine, with 2 added advantages:

1- the volume pumped is lower and not too strong for the system
2- the pump's life is incremented since it's working a lot more "relaxed".

[DaneDHorstead]

JavierF

Please don't missunderstand me, I have not built such a device, but am only considering the practicalities of it.

As I see it, you are aiming for a lower 3 gap cell?

The three gap, will work with far less electrolyte. Mine produces 1.19 LPM with 1 tsp/1 gal (distilled), NaOH, and works equally as well with 1 tsp/1 gal (distilled) of KOH.

But, it draws greater heat, than I wanted (10 amps per cell, at 129F).

The 129F is not too awfully bad to live with, but I attempt to do better, by adjusting the cell design (adding neutrals), and adjusting KOH.

I would prefer to see if I can get the heat to a lower operating temp, without using two truckloads of KOH.

KOH (or NaOH) are not "consumed" by the devices, so the only thing added later, is more distilled water.

Other electrolyte types are consumed by the generators!

[javierf]

DaneDHorstead,

I'm using 1/8" gap between plates. I think your concentration of 1tsp/1 gallon of destilled water generating 1.19LPM is very good. Do you have any pictures of your electrolyser?

[DaneDHorstead]

javierF;

Like yourself, I post my electrode design at the top of every writting.

Obviously, it a wet cell, as yours is dry.

But for larger view, see......
http://shuttermotor.tripod.com/id11.html

I am changing the cell design, to use four nylon bolts, where only two are shown, to maintain better control of gaps, and eliminate any bending of plates.

Gap, is 0.0435" (1.1 mm), and is comparable to Stan Myers recomended 0.045", as also Dave Lawton recomends.

On recomendation of others, I am also experimenting with other plate configurations, and gaps, but I was very pleased with the 1.19 LPM I got at 13.8 volts / 11 Amps, and 128F.

With three identical gens. I was outputting almost 3.6 LPM in 1 tsp KOH per gal distilled water. Each container, holds just under 1/2 gal.

[javierf]

DaneDHorstead,

Is the 128F operating temperature stabilized? After how long? Does it stay at that temp after a couple of hours?