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Thread: More voltage equals more production!

  1. #1
    fisher Guest

    More voltage equals more production!

    I am in electronics and thus have access to variable power supplies, etc for testing my homemade generators. I wanted to debunk a myth (or two) that seems prevalant with HHO junkies.

    I used plastic bolts, washers and nuts to bolt two strips of SS together with 1/8th inch spacing between the two. I stuck theses two strips into a glass containing a KOH / water solution and connected a variable DC power supply to the strips.

    With about one half of one volt applied, I could see bubbles of HHO being generated. Not many, but there was HHO being produced.
    MYTH - It takes over 1.24 or 1.39 or ?.?? volts to produce HHO - BUSTED.

    I began increasing the voltage. As I did, production increased. I did not measure production, I just watched through the glass that contained my test generator. With one volt applied, I had some production. With two volts, more production. With 4 volts, even more. With 6 volts, even more. With 12 volts, much more.
    MYTH - After 1.29 volts or 2 volts or 2.5 volts or ?.?? volts, production does not increase - BUSTED.

    Now, there is a magic point of tradeoff somewhere. 12 volts connected to only 2 plates wired +- generated a LOT of bubbles. No doubt why so many post on this forum wanting to figure out a way to do a cell that is wired +-+-+- without heat problems. It simply creates a lot more bubbles, than using neutral plates. But adding neutral plates decreases production. I will say it again. ADDING NEUTRAL PLATES DECREASES PRODUCTION. Please, lay down your ax and finish reading my post before you chop my head off for that statement.

    The magic point of tradeoff is that you must use some neutral plates. 12 volts applied in a +- manner on two plates generates lots of bubbles of HHO, but it also generates way too much heat. The neutral plates reduce the output of the cell, but also reduce the heat generated in the cell. That is why they are added.

    I feel that the number of neutral plates you need is contingent upon your particular cell design, it's location in your car, it's container... If it is in front of the radiator, where cool air can get to it, you may get by with less neutral plates because your cell can lose heat to the ambient air. If it is between your exhaust pipes, with no cool air around, you are going to have more heat problems. So how many neutral plates? Why do some recommend 4, some 5, some 6... some 100? Because it depends on a lot of factors. But realize this, less plates will generate more gas (and more heat.)

    Opposites attract. Electrons have a negative charge. If you have a 12 volt battery, with two plates and a molecule of water between those plates, the negatively charged electrons will be attracted toward the positive plate. But the positively charged protons in the atoms of H and O will be attracted toward the negative plate. This causes them to split. and you just generated HHO. Because you split the molecule. Doesn't it make sense that 12 volts will apply more force to split the molecules than 2 volts would, therefore 12 volts will be more effective?

    I don't know where these magic numbers of 1.24 volts, 2 volts... came from. I have read many places that after that certain voltage, production does not increase. If I had a video camera, I would post a video to disprove this myth. If you don't believe it, try it yourself. If you do not have a variable power supply, connect 12 volts to 2 plates, as I did and view the production, then add another two plates into another glass sitting separate from your first test generator, and wire the two in series so that each gets approximately 6 volts. Then view the production of your cell and contrast the amount of bubbles generated at 12 volts to the amount generated at 6 volts. 12 does more, way more. But generates too much heat. That is why we add neutral plates. They reduce the voltage between plates, thus reducing heat but also reducing output.

    Now, I stuck my neck out, go for my head.

  2. #2
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by fisher View Post
    I am in electronics and thus have access to variable power supplies, etc for testing my homemade generators. I wanted to debunk a myth (or two) that seems prevalant with HHO junkies.

    I used plastic bolts, washers and nuts to bolt two strips of SS together with 1/8th inch spacing between the two. I stuck theses two strips into a glass containing a KOH / water solution and connected a variable DC power supply to the strips.

    With about one half of one volt applied, I could see bubbles of HHO being generated. Not many, but there was HHO being produced.
    MYTH - It takes over 1.24 or 1.39 or ?.?? volts to produce HHO - BUSTED.

    I began increasing the voltage. As I did, production increased. I did not measure production, I just watched through the glass that contained my test generator. With one volt applied, I had some production. With two volts, more production. With 4 volts, even more. With 6 volts, even more. With 12 volts, much more.
    MYTH - After 1.29 volts or 2 volts or 2.5 volts or ?.?? volts, production does not increase - BUSTED.

    Now, there is a magic point of tradeoff somewhere. 12 volts connected to only 2 plates wired +- generated a LOT of bubbles. No doubt why so many post on this forum wanting to figure out a way to do a cell that is wired +-+-+- without heat problems. It simply creates a lot more bubbles, than using neutral plates. But adding neutral plates decreases production. I will say it again. ADDING NEUTRAL PLATES DECREASES PRODUCTION. Please, lay down your ax and finish reading my post before you chop my head off for that statement.

    The magic point of tradeoff is that you must use some neutral plates. 12 volts applied in a +- manner on two plates generates lots of bubbles of HHO, but it also generates way too much heat. The neutral plates reduce the output of the cell, but also reduce the heat generated in the cell. That is why they are added.

    I feel that the number of neutral plates you need is contingent upon your particular cell design, it's location in your car, it's container... If it is in front of the radiator, where cool air can get to it, you may get by with less neutral plates because your cell can lose heat to the ambient air. If it is between your exhaust pipes, with no cool air around, you are going to have more heat problems. So how many neutral plates? Why do some recommend 4, some 5, some 6... some 100? Because it depends on a lot of factors. But realize this, less plates will generate more gas (and more heat.)

    Opposites attract. Electrons have a negative charge. If you have a 12 volt battery, with two plates and a molecule of water between those plates, the negatively charged electrons will be attracted toward the positive plate. But the positively charged protons in the atoms of H and O will be attracted toward the negative plate. This causes them to split. and you just generated HHO. Because you split the molecule. Doesn't it make sense that 12 volts will apply more force to split the molecules than 2 volts would, therefore 12 volts will be more effective?

    I don't know where these magic numbers of 1.24 volts, 2 volts... came from. I have read many places that after that certain voltage, production does not increase. If I had a video camera, I would post a video to disprove this myth. If you don't believe it, try it yourself. If you do not have a variable power supply, connect 12 volts to 2 plates, as I did and view the production, then add another two plates into another glass sitting separate from your first test generator, and wire the two in series so that each gets approximately 6 volts. Then view the production of your cell and contrast the amount of bubbles generated at 12 volts to the amount generated at 6 volts. 12 does more, way more. But generates too much heat. That is why we add neutral plates. They reduce the voltage between plates, thus reducing heat but also reducing output.

    Now, I stuck my neck out, go for my head.
    Thermodynamics of the process (Wikipedia - Water electrolysis)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_electrolysis

    Decomposition of pure water into hydrogen and oxygen at standard temperature and pressure is not favorable in thermodynamical terms. This is because, E(cell)=E(Oxidation) + E(Reduction). If E(cell) < 0, reaction is not favorable.


    Thus, the standard potential of the water electrolysis cell is 1.23 V at 25 °C.

    The positive voltage indicates the Gibbs Free Energy for electrolysis of water is greater than zero for these reactions. This can be found using the Nernst Equation at equilibrium. The reaction cannot occur without adding necessary energy, usually supplied by an external electrical power source but also possible with thermal energy.

    IOW 1.23 V @ 25* C must be supplied to water for electrolysis to begin.

    If the electrolyte low in resistance, as it would be with 27% KOH by weight, and if the plates are close together, the I^2R heating losses will be at the minimum.

    BoyntonStu

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Don't worry about stucking your neck out here, I'm going to do it with you based on what I've seen that clarifies things a bit more:

    Production of some sort does occur at voltages lower than 1. Its just barely there. My first HHO setup was 16 plates at 12v, it sucked big time but DID produce some HHO.

    I once took a set of plates wired +NNNN- and accidentally shorted out the whole set by touching a bolt along the side of the series set (it spot welded to it!). Production was so nuts I could hear it fizzling. I turned it off after about 30 seconds and pulled the plates out of the bath, they were hot!

    I too believe production occurs at all voltages, its just that there is a point where production isn't enough and another where heat is an issue (as you stated).

    I've said before that I believe production is a factor of voltage, resistance and area of plates, resistance of the electrolyte, efficiency of the setup as concerns current leakage / loss and plate gap.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    North Jersey
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    Using graphite as the anode will reduce heat, but It also carries some other requirements as, type of electrolyte, effective way of attaching wires to it.

    I realise this may not be the time or place to bring up graphite but, aw, what the heck I'll stick my head out too

  5. #5
    fisher Guest
    BoyntonStu, I done went and dove off in waters too deep for me, a fact you quickly revealed to me. To most of your post, I reply with an emphatic "DUH, WHAT?". My first simple thought is the @25 degrees C. That ain't happenin under my hood.

    Second thought, are you saying that the I^2R losses would be a minimum at any voltage? If so, I disagree. The magic right amount of voltage would give the maximum output without exceeding maximum acceptable heating rates. But increasing voltage would take you away from that point. Also, as heat increases, I increases (current is I for those who don't know) and R (resistance) decreases. However since we are squaring I, the decrease in R still changes the power since it increases I.

    So I don't know what I just said, but in short; the results change with changes of temperature, and voltage.

    Painless, thanks for the backup.

  6. #6
    fisher Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Boltazar View Post
    Using graphite as the anode will reduce heat, but It also carries some other requirements as, type of electrolyte, effective way of attaching wires to it.

    I realise this may not be the time or place to bring up graphite but, aw, what the heck I'll stick my head out too
    Thanks for joining me on the ole chopping block here. Now I don't feel so alone.

  7. #7
    Static HHO Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fisher View Post
    Thanks for joining me on the ole chopping block here. Now I don't feel so alone.
    I'll join you there. Some of the best, in this business, alway warn against over-driving a cell. Paraphrasing here: any voltage over 2.4 volts, measured at any air gap, or two adjoining cell plates, tend to drive the ferrous (iron) oxides out of the metal. While 316 L Stainless is one of the best choices for electrode plates, oxides will still be driven from this alloy if the voltage runs higher, over an extended period of time, that the 2.4 volts. If you're looking for higher production, increase the square inches in contact with your electrolyte solution. 'necks out, take a swing.

  8. #8
    fisher Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Static HHO View Post
    any voltage over 2.4 volts, measured at any air gap, or two adjoining cell plates, tend to drive the ferrous (iron) oxides out of the metal. While 316 L Stainless is one of the best choices for electrode plates, oxides will still be driven from this alloy if the voltage runs higher, over an extended period of time, that the 2.4 volts. If you're looking for higher production, increase the square inches in contact with your electrolyte solution.
    So lets see, assuming a maximum voltage of 14 volts,

    14 / 2.4 = 5.83, I need at least 6 cells, or a + plate, a - plate and 5 neutrals. And that would prevent damage to my plates.

    Now, let say that I do that, using electrical switch plates, and get 0.25 LPM of hydroxy for 6 months.

    Or, I use only 5 plates, making 4 cells (a +, a -, 3 neutrals) and get .40 LPM of hydroxy for 6 months, and then have to spend 1.96 each for 5 more plates, and rebuild my cell.

    But with .25 LPM my car gets 35 MPG, with .40 LPM, it gets 40 MPG. And I drive 8000 miles in 6 months.

    8000 / 35 = 228 gallons @ 3.50 per = $800 worth of gas.
    8000 / 40 = 200 gallons @ 3.50 per = $700 worth of gas.

    So for sacrificing $10 worth of plates, I save $100 worth of gas. I will sacrifice the plates.

    NOTE: The numbers used above were just pulled from thin air in order to obtain an example. Just to show that sacrificing plates may be acceptable if the cost/benefit ratio justifies it.

    thoughts?

  9. #9
    redneckgearhead34 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by fisher View Post
    So lets see, assuming a maximum voltage of 14 volts,

    14 / 2.4 = 5.83, I need at least 6 cells, or a + plate, a - plate and 5 neutrals. And that would prevent damage to my plates.

    Now, let say that I do that, using electrical switch plates, and get 0.25 LPM of hydroxy for 6 months.

    Or, I use only 5 plates, making 4 cells (a +, a -, 3 neutrals) and get .40 LPM of hydroxy for 6 months, and then have to spend 1.96 each for 5 more plates, and rebuild my cell.

    But with .25 LPM my car gets 35 MPG, with .40 LPM, it gets 40 MPG. And I drive 8000 miles in 6 months.

    8000 / 35 = 228 gallons @ 3.50 per = $800 worth of gas.
    8000 / 40 = 200 gallons @ 3.50 per = $700 worth of gas.

    So for sacrificing $10 worth of plates, I save $100 worth of gas. I will sacrifice the plates.

    NOTE: The numbers used above were just pulled from thin air in order to obtain an example. Just to show that sacrificing plates may be acceptable if the cost/benefit ratio justifies it.

    thoughts?
    I know this is kind of out there but, once you get enough plates you can take them to a metal recycling place and they will pay you to recycle the plates. They pay by the pound.

    I stripped down an old a/c unit once and got like $300 for the copper out of it.

  10. #10
    overtaker Guest
    NOT SO BUSTED! I would say it is the extra current from the higher voltage that is producing the increase in production. Do the same experiment only check the amps. at each step. Then try to produce the same amps. with only 2v. It will have the same production only with much less heat. Of course I could be wrong.

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