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Thread: Figuring Voltage per plate ????

  1. #1
    ShowMeHHO Guest

    Figuring Voltage per plate ????

    Can someone please clear this up for me ....

    I read this in the forum on the thread about " Surface Area and Voltage "

    One stated " You voltage is 13.8 thus you plates are ~1.97v/p"

    Then someone posted this " in a 7 plate setup, there are 6 cell, so 13.8/6=2.3

    I had been believing the first but figuring at 13.7 volts in my design but then when I read that post I wanted to post here and get my facts straight before proceeding any farther ....

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShowMeHHO View Post
    Can someone please clear this up for me ....

    I read this in the forum on the thread about " Surface Area and Voltage "

    One stated " You voltage is 13.8 thus you plates are ~1.97v/p"

    Then someone posted this " in a 7 plate setup, there are 6 cell, so 13.8/6=2.3

    I had been believing the first but figuring at 13.7 volts in my design but then when I read that post I wanted to post here and get my facts straight before proceeding any farther ....
    The post references a plate stack that actually started with 8 plates. It was recommended as working better to drop one of the n plates and use 7 plates instead. That is the difference between the two figures. You measure the voltage where you are mounting your cell at the wires where your cell will be hooked to. Divide the number of spaces between your plates by the measured voltage and you have your voltage per cell. I personally did not like the 8 plate stack. I prefer 7 or less. I can use lower concentrations of KOH and not deal with the harsh electrolite and worry less about getting KOH in my engine. It eats aluminum.

  3. #3
    dennis13030 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ShowMeHHO View Post
    Can someone please clear this up for me ....

    I read this in the forum on the thread about " Surface Area and Voltage "

    One stated " You voltage is 13.8 thus you plates are ~1.97v/p"

    Then someone posted this " in a 7 plate setup, there are 6 cell, so 13.8/6=2.3

    I had been believing the first but figuring at 13.7 volts in my design but then when I read that post I wanted to post here and get my facts straight before proceeding any farther ....
    I think the following is the equation you need to determine the plate to plate voltage.

    source voltage(battery or other) = Vs
    total number of plates = Np
    total number of cells = Nc = Np - 1
    plate to plate voltage = Vpp = Vs/Nc

    This assumes a design like +NNN-.

    Understand that a design like +NNN-NNN+ is actually two electrolyzers in parallel.

    Lets solve this design(+NNN-).

    Np=5
    Vs=13.8V
    Nc=4
    Vpp=13.8V/4 = 3.45V

    It is recommended that Vpp be in the range 1.5V to 2.0V because over 2.0V and there is a good deal of efficiency lost to heating effects.

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Hey there, Dennis.

    Been quite a while since I've seen you post. Good to see you back.

    Russ.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  5. #5
    redDEVIL Guest
    Hi Dennis,

    I've just joined this forum and just started to read few posts, including yours. What i'm gonna ask is, what about +-+-+-+- configuration? I've read that putting neutrals will decrease heat and increase gas production.
    If i have the +-+- configuration and let's say i put 20 plates in series ( 12 Volts ), it means that there will be 10 cells in series and the voltage of each cell will be 12/10 = 1.2 volts. Am i correct?
    I'm gonna make a HHO generator for my class project. Your inputs will be much appreciated.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by redDEVIL View Post
    Hi Dennis,

    I've just joined this forum and just started to read few posts, including yours. What i'm gonna ask is, what about +-+-+-+- configuration? I've read that putting neutrals will decrease heat and increase gas production.
    If i have the +-+- configuration and let's say i put 20 plates in series ( 12 Volts ), it means that there will be 10 cells in series and the voltage of each cell will be 12/10 = 1.2 volts. Am i correct?
    I'm gonna make a HHO generator for my class project. Your inputs will be much appreciated.
    Not quite...

    Remember that you measure voltage across each + and - so in your configuration of +-+-+-+- while you do have 7 cells, each one has 12v across it. It's the neutral or unconnected plates that give you the voltage drop.

    +- = 1 cell 12v ... +-+-+-
    +|- = 2 cells 6v ... +|-|+|-
    +||- = 3 cells 4v ... +||-||+||-
    +|||- = 4 cells 3v ... +|||-|||+|||-
    +||||- = 5 cells 2.4v ... +||||-||||+||||-
    +|||||- = 6 cells 2v ... +|||||-|||||+|||||-

    Does this help you understand a little better?
    --
    Some days I get the sinking feeling that Orwell was an optimist!

  7. #7
    redDEVIL Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Q-Hack! View Post
    Not quite...

    Remember that you measure voltage across each + and - so in your configuration of +-+-+-+- while you do have 7 cells, each one has 12v across it. It's the neutral or unconnected plates that give you the voltage drop.

    +- = 1 cell 12v ... +-+-+-
    +|- = 2 cells 6v ... +|-|+|-
    +||- = 3 cells 4v ... +||-||+||-
    +|||- = 4 cells 3v ... +|||-|||+|||-
    +||||- = 5 cells 2.4v ... +||||-||||+||||-
    +|||||- = 6 cells 2v ... +|||||-|||||+|||||-

    Does this help you understand a little better?
    Ok. Now i understand So if i have 21 plates, i can arrange it into 7 cells set up :

    + І І І І І І - І І І І І І + І І І І І І -

    thus i can get 1.7 voltage drop at each cell. However, based on author Patrick J. Kelly ( A Practical Guide to "free energy" device ), the max voltage dop should be 1.24 Volt. Any excess voltage will go heating the electrolyte. So,1.7 volt shouldnt be good enough.

    A few questions more :
    1. What about the amp? what amp do you use? Is there a maximum limit for amp?
    ( I'm gonna make a HHO generator for gas production purpose, so it's not gonna be installed in vehicles )
    2. What is the suitable cell set up to get a proper HHO gas composition. I'm sure we prefer the hydrogen in higher quantities rather than oxygen. So to make it that way, we need to add extra negative charged electrode within the cells.
    3. Can we store the splitted gas of HHO in a confined space? Will it be recombine and become water again?

    Thanks for your kind response

  8. #8

    Calculating volume of hho production from a cell design.

    It has been deduced from Faraday’s laws that one ampere of current for one hour should produce .0147 cubic feet of hydrogen. (Paraphrased from “The Chemistry and Manufacture of HYDROGEN” by P. Litherland Teed page 131 – LONDON Edward Arnold 1919) this book being obtained from www.knowledgepublications.com. This equates to; amps X .000245 = CFM hydrogen. The equation I received from an electrochemical engineer I’m acquainted with is; amps X .000246 = CFM hydrogen, and amps X .0001229 = CFM oxygen. The accepted unit of measure of gas output that we use for the HHO cells we work with is LPM (liters per minute). To convert our calculated CFM of gas to LPM we multiply by 28.3.
    For an example; assume a cell of one anode and one cathode (one gap between them) operating at 12 volts and consuming 12 amperes. Generated hydrogen would be 12amps X .000246 = .002952 CFM, generated oxygen would be 12amps X .0001229 = .0014748 CFM. Add the two together and multiply by 28.3 and we have .1253 LPM or 125.3ml/min HHO. We see that this cell doesn’t produce much HHO and being the plate to plate voltage is 12 we know we have a really good hot water heater.
    Practical experience tells us that plate to plate voltage should not be much over 2 to minimize heat gain. To achieve this in our test cell we must add 5 bi-polar (or commonly referred to as neutral) plates for a total of 7 plates having 6 gaps between them. The voltage is now reduced between each plate to 2, 12 volts divided by 6 gaps; however the current remains at 12 amps between each plate. Having 6 gaps at 12 amps each we now plug 72 into our equations; (72 X .000246 = .017712 + 72 X .0001229 = .0088488 = .0265608 X 28.3 = .7516 LPM) three quarters of a liter at 12 amps, not bad and very little heat gain. We can increase our gas volume, along with current consumption, without additional heat gain, by connecting two or more of our seven plate cells electrically in parallel.
    When I first came upon these equations I wondered how close they were to the real world. Through empirical testing on the calibrated flow bench, of several different cells, I found that these equations are accurate. Some cells getting closer to calculated output than others, none getting more, due most likely to efficiencies of design.
    There are many parameters involved when designing a cell; gas quantity desired, sustained current available, and space required for mounting are primary concerns. We now see how we can calculate gas volume using available current. When designing for space requirements we need to consider how much current will be passing each plate. Heat generation results from a combination of voltage and current. We have seen that voltage can be controlled by the number of plates we use in each cell. We can control current via external means by using a pulse width modulator; there are some very good ones available. However, in the design process of our cell, by juggling the amount of parallel cells, the current to be used and the size of the plates, we are able to get a pretty good handle on the heat gain we will experience. An important consideration is current density on each plate in the cell. A good rule of thumb is to try to achieve a current density of .5 amps per square inch or less.
    In our test example above running at 12 amps, in order to achieve our .5 amps /sq. inch, since we have 12 amps flowing through each plate, we’ll need plates equaling 24 sq. inch each. Possibly 3 X 8 inches or maybe 4 X 6 inches. If we have room and can make the plates larger, all the better, it will lower the current density and or allow for the use of more current thus producing more gas.
    As we have seen, we are able to closely calculate the expected HHO output of cell designs, albeit there are many factors to consider when starting with a clean sheet of paper.
    "EXPERIENCE" it's what you get when you don't get what you want!

  9. #9
    redDEVIL Guest
    Thanks for your explanation. It definetely makes me understand now. I can now calculate the gas flowrate i wanna achieve before i go constructing the generator. And how about the gap between each plate? i've read that the closer it is, the higher the gas production will be. Moreover, what about the plate thickness, does it count?
    Can i store the HHO gas in a vessel? Will it turn in liquid phase when it's static?

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by redDEVIL View Post
    Can i store the HHO gas in a vessel? Will it turn in liquid phase when it's static?
    Yes you can store HHO gas in a vessel and it won't turn back into water over time. However, BE VERY CAREFUL... HHO doesn't like to be compressed beyond a certain pressure. 400 psi seems to be the point at which it self explodes.

    http://forum.beawindhog.com/cgi-bin/...?m-1218081580/
    --
    Some days I get the sinking feeling that Orwell was an optimist!

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