Neutral plates

[redneck323]

So does excess voltage create heat i am assuming so.I suspect this is a part of my heat problem. My plates are wired - + - + - + - and i have a tremendous heat issue i go from about 18 amps to over 30 in a few minutes and unless i am driving (mounted in front of the radiator) and have airflow i easily blow a fuse. should i change to - N N N N N + . Will this decrease production will i be better off installing a cooling circuit like a trans cooler and electric pump? Any advice appreciated even though im gonna do it and find out myself LOL!!
Thanks, Carl

[alpha-dog]

So does excess voltage create heat i am assuming so.I suspect this is a part of my heat problem. My plates are wired - + - + - + - and i have a tremendous heat issue i go from about 18 amps to over 30 in a few minutes and unless i am driving (mounted in front of the radiator) and have airflow i easily blow a fuse. should i change to - N N N N N + . Will this decrease production will i be better off installing a cooling circuit like a trans cooler and electric pump? Any advice appreciated even though im gonna do it and find out myself LOL!!
Thanks, Carl

You would be better off with the -NNNNN+. I can't tell you about production but my guess is it'll be close.
Russ

[coffeeachiever]

So does excess voltage create heat i am assuming so.I suspect this is a part of my heat problem. My plates are wired - + - + - + - and i have a tremendous heat issue
Thanks, Carl

You will always have uncontrolable thermal runaway with your unit wired like that. Stu explained it above. You want to divide the voltage through the plates till there is no excess to produce heat. You want to do everything possible to avoid making steam and keep the unit cool. You can figure around 2 volts per plate with a little breathing room. Anything more than 2.4 or so and you are making heat with no extra production to show for it. Like Stu said, neutrals aren't really neutral. They carry the charge of the corresponding charged plate and they do produce gas.

[DaneDHorstead]

Sir BoyntonStu, thanks for the reply.
If they are not neutral so what are they? +, -? How the electricity goes thought?

Stephane;

Reading on, I don't really think you got the point of the "N" plates (to include U plates, ( aka:Fred plates, Sally plates, or plates by any other name)

Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function, but in the case where Stu says call it a U plate, I am afraid that only further confuses the issue........

Stu is a brilliant man, and I don't want to be critical. But, because there actually are plates out there, that are litterally folded plates (bent over (folded) in the middle, to form a U). this designation of the U plate, confuses the issue....

He states he has been largely unsuccesful, at getting people to call them U plates, and he is right, in that respect. Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function!

Noe in regard to the Fred, and Sally plates, it should be apparent, that a name, is only a name! (A rose by any other name....)

Generally accepted N is the name given to a stainless plate, that is not physicly attached to the current, but that does conduct current through induction.

The N plates are Not connected, and rely on induction (current leaked in the form of magnetic waves), through insolation, or in this case, electrolyte.

Long about the 8th grade, you should have been shown a science experiment, where an insulated wire was wrapped many times around a nail, or similar metal bar, or shaft.

The wire being insulated, does not make physical contact with the nail, but when the wire is connected to both poles of a drycell battery, the nail become magnetic.

But, it is only magnetic, as long as the current flows through the insulated wire.

The nail, although not connected directly to the battery, is getting inducted current! This is the same way, very large electromagnets in a junk yard work, and they litterally can pick up a whole car.

In the HHO solution, current is indirectly passed (without physical connection), to the N plates. Thus using one N plate, between a 14 volt input, and the 0 volt negative, the N plate will hold a 7 volt charge, as the electrolyte allows for voltage leakage, similar to the insolation leaked/induced an indirect current flow, in the electro magnet experiment.

Now, adding more N plates, you get gaps between the plates, which determine how many times the input volts, are divided, to determine volt drop at each plate.

As an example, 14 volts input, with 7 gaps, produces a 2 volt drop between each plate........

14 - 12 - 10 - 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 - 0

A two volt drop between each plate is the generally accepted target, to maintain production, and to control heat.

Truthfully, HHO can be produced, with as little as a 1.4 volt drop (10 gap), but production suffers. On the other hand, volt drop higher than 2.4 to 2.5 volts, starts to produce excess heat.

Any plate design that does not use N plates, automatlcly drops any voltage in excess of the 2.4 volts needed to produce HHO, as excessive heat! (AKA: wasted energy).

Manipulating the number of N plates, and the gap distance between them, you can gain some control, over not only production, but also over wasted energy, in the form of excess heat.

Does that help?

[BoyntonStu]

Stephane;

Reading on, I don't really think you got the point of the "N" plates (to include U plates, ( aka:Fred plates, Sally plates, or plates by any other name)

Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function, but in the case where Stu says call it a U plate, I am afraid that only further confuses the issue........

Stu is a brilliant man, and I don't want to be critical. But, because there actually are plates out there, that are litterally folded plates (bent over (folded) in the middle, to form a U). this designation of the U plate, confuses the issue....

He states he has been largely unsuccesful, at getting people to call them U plates, and he is right, in that respect. Changing the name of the plate, does not change it's function!

Noe in regard to the Fred, and Sally plates, it should be apparent, that a name, is only a name! (A rose by any other name....)

Generally accepted N is the name given to a stainless plate, that is not physicly attached to the current, but that does conduct current through induction.

The N plates are Not connected, and rely on induction (current leaked in the form of magnetic waves), through insolation, or in this case, electrolyte.

Long about the 8th grade, you should have been shown a science experiment, where an insulated wire was wrapped many times around a nail, or similar metal bar, or shaft.

The wire being insulated, does not make physical contact with the nail, but when the wire is connected to both poles of a drycell battery, the nail become magnetic.

But, it is only magnetic, as long as the current flows through the insulated wire.

The nail, although not connected directly to the battery, is getting inducted current! This is the same way, very large electromagnets in a junk yard work, and they litterally can pick up a whole car.

In the HHO solution, current is indirectly passed (without physical connection), to the N plates. Thus using one N plate, between a 14 volt input, and the 0 volt negative, the N plate will hold a 7 volt charge, as the electrolyte allows for voltage leakage, similar to the insolation leaked/induced an indirect current flow, in the electro magnet experiment.

Now, adding more N plates, you get gaps between the plates, which determine how many times the input volts, are divided, to determine volt drop at each plate.

As an example, 14 volts input, with 7 gaps, produces a 2 volt drop between each plate........

14 - 12 - 10 - 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 - 0

A two volt drop between each plate is the generally accepted target, to maintain production, and to control heat.

Truthfully, HHO can be produced, with as little as a 1.4 volt drop (10 gap), but production suffers. On the other hand, volt drop higher than 2.4 to 2.5 volts, starts to produce excess heat.

Any plate design that does not use N plates, automatlcly drops any voltage in excess of the 2.4 volts needed to produce HHO, as excessive heat! (AKA: wasted energy).

Manipulating the number of N plates, and the gap distance between them, you can gain some control, over not only production, but also over wasted energy, in the form of excess heat.

Does that help?

Sorry, Dane you are not correct about conductivity.


Some electrical conductivities:

Electrical Conductivity

Silver 63.01 × 10^6 20 Highest electrical conductivity of any known metal

Copper 59.6 × 10^6 20
Annealed Copper 58.0 × 10^6 20 Referred to as 100% IACS or International Annealed Copper Standard. The unit for expressing the conductivity of nonmagnetic materials by testing using the eddy-current method. Generally used for temper and alloy verification of Aluminium.

Electrical Conductivity and temperature *C.

Gold 45.2 × 10^6 20 Gold is commonly used in electrical contacts

Aluminium 37.8 × 10^6 20


Seawater 5 23 Refer to http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/genera...2_7/2_7_9.html for more detail as there are many variations and significant variables for seawater.

5(S·m-1) would be for an average salinity of 35 g/kg at about 23(°C) Copyright on the linked material can be found here http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/copyright/


Drinking water 0.0005 to 0.05 This value range is typical of high quality drinking water and not an indicator of water quality
deionized water 5.5 × 10-6[1] changes to 1.2 × 10-4 in water with no gas present[1]

Notice that seawater has 10,000 times the conductivity of drinking water.

Add NaOH or KOH to distilled water and its CONDUCTIVITY jumps way up.


I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[Bassman]

That's a very good explanation but I might add that even steel will work but the problem is that your catalyst will dissolve certain metals, depending on what catalyst that you use.

[BoyntonStu]

That's a very good explanation but I might add that even steel will work but the problem is that your catalyst will dissolve certain metals, depending on what catalyst that you use.

NaOH and KOH will not greatly affect 304, 316, 317 SS.

Why confuse the issue with 'certain' metals?

Aluminum and NaOH will make Hydrogen as the aluminum dissolves.


Don't use aluminum.

If folks use anything but NaOH or KOH, I believe that they are making an error of judgment.

FWIW


BoyntonStu

[Bassman]

NaOH and KOH will not greatly affect 304, 316, 317 SS.

Why confuse the issue with 'certain' metals?

Aluminum and NaOH will make Hydrogen as the aluminum dissolves.


Don't use aluminum.

If folks use anything but NaOH or KOH, I believe that they are making an error of judgment.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

That was the point that I was trying to make. By using stainless, it is effected less by NaOH but that doesn't mean other metals can't be used. They just won't last long.

[DaneDHorstead]

Sorry, Dane you are not correct about conductivity.


Some electrical conductivities:

Electrical Conductivity

Silver 63.01 × 10^6 20 Highest electrical conductivity of any known metal

Copper 59.6 × 10^6 20
Annealed Copper 58.0 × 10^6 20 Referred to as 100% IACS or International Annealed Copper Standard. The unit for expressing the conductivity of nonmagnetic materials by testing using the eddy-current method. Generally used for temper and alloy verification of Aluminium.

Electrical Conductivity and temperature *C.

Gold 45.2 × 10^6 20 Gold is commonly used in electrical contacts

Aluminium 37.8 × 10^6 20


Seawater 5 23 Refer to http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/genera...2_7/2_7_9.html for more detail as there are many variations and significant variables for seawater.

5(S·m-1) would be for an average salinity of 35 g/kg at about 23(°C) Copyright on the linked material can be found here http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk/copyright/


Drinking water 0.0005 to 0.05 This value range is typical of high quality drinking water and not an indicator of water quality
deionized water 5.5 × 10-6[1] changes to 1.2 × 10-4 in water with no gas present[1]

Notice that seawater has 10,000 times the conductivity of drinking water.

Add NaOH or KOH to distilled water and its CONDUCTIVITY jumps way up.


I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

Stu;

In regards to the conductivity of various metals, you are speaking off topic. I hold no amimosity, but the conductivity, of copper, silver, gold, mercury, or far more, are not the issue.

The conductivity, or inductive temperment of the electrolyte, is the issue.

This is a forum, where open discussion of all respects, of the issue are tossed about, and reflected upon, for further discussion, and opinions.

No single person, is 100% right, or wrong, as we largely are seeking the unknown, or misunderstood.

With each of the above, the metals are used to form a physical pathway, for curent to flow (even in the case of a mercury switch).

Formerly, you write: Electricity flows though wires.At every point along the wire as you go from + to - the voltage is slightly less + than it was at the previous point. Less positive is the same as being negative with respect to the previous point.

Electricity flows through an electrolyte. In fact, we see 50 Amps or more easily flowing through the liquid.

At every point along the electrolyte as you go from + to - the voltage is slightly less + than it was at the previous point. Less positive is the same as being negative with respect to the previous point.


I hope that this helps.


BoyntonStu

___________________________

You also state in the above that electricity flows through electrolyte, which again, I will not argue. However, you write a pm to me, that the flow is conductive, and not inductive.

I do not believe that the electrical flow of current through electrolyte is in the truest sense conducted, as much as it is inducted.

In either respect, both of us acknowlege that the current is not flowing through a conventional metalic pathway, but instead, does flow through the electrolyte, of the liquid surrounding the plates

The pole plates (as well as with action/reaction of N plates), in regards to the HHO generator, is very often compared to a capacitor, as so also is interaction of currents between clouds, in the form of lightning!

The word capacity, means 100% full, to the point that it can not hold anymore, without discharging at least some, of its volume. Such as filling a barrel with water! There comes a point, where one more drop of water causes the barrel to overflow.

Now, back to the HHO generator......

It is generally acknowleged, that electrolyte, is added to water, to aid in the flow of current, because water by itself, is at least a poor conductor, if indeed it conducts at all!

There are two distinct schools of thought on that, as the true Myers generator, does not use electrolyte, yet the majority of opinion holds that water alone, is not a conductor.

There are two sides to that issue, such as glass also acts as a poor conductor, as well as an insolator, such as Alexander G. Bell proved, with early capacitor experiments

Any golfer, that has ever been struck by lightning (such as Lee Travino), would undoubtedly take your side of the issue, as the current is very real, and deadly!

But, it was not conducted, through the conventional metal path, of a wire, or even through any set pathway.

Lightning dances, changing the shape of its path, many times during the split second it parts the sky. Because the lightning changes its path, dancing through the sky, I do not see how it can be said that it is conducted, more that it is inducted?

Current flowing through a solution of electrolyte, that is at least 2/3 made of a generally acceptable poor electrical conductor (if it conducts at all), is being aided by the electrolyte, to pass the current.

Imagine a current flowing (or attempting to flow), through a tube, which is filled with 2/3water, and the remainder could be any known conductor. But, the contents need to be evenly spread, as the HHO electrolyte solution, is mixed to a saturation point.

If for example, even using the same ingredients 2/3 water, 1/3 KOH, and that solution was used to fill the elongated hollow of a 14 gage wire insolation, with a metal probe inserted at each end, to connect the ends to an appliance......

Would that electrical path, conduct current, to power a lamp, provided 110 volts was input, and a similar return path was provided?

If it does, then why are we using copper, to make wire?

If it can't do the job, then I would wonder if the flow wasn't inducted, rather than conducted?

If water alone, conducts current, then why is electrolyte needed? Many will argue that it does conduct current. Then current will travel through a water pipe (even if the jacket is made of vinyl), and copper is not needed to make wires!

Lets also consider, that three plates are set in a solution, yards, or even miles away from each other, and are powered in similar fashion, to an open bath HHO generator.

Will current flow, as it does, in the much smaller set up?

If the current is conducted, then distance, would not be as nearly influenced, as induction! Induction relies on proximity, and for that reason given a strong enough charge, it will even transverse our sky, once its capacity is reached.



Perhaps, my argument is with the use of the term, as compared to it’s definition………..

Merriam Webster says:

Conductor

One entry found.

Main Entry: con·duc·tor


Function: noun Date: 15th century
: one that conducts: as a: guide b: a collector of fares in a public conveyance c: the leader of a musical ensemble d (1): a material or object that permits an electric current to flow easily — compare insulator , semiconductor (2): a material capable of transmitting another form of energy (as heat or sound)
— con·duc·to·ri·al

adjective

__________________________

Note that I emboldened the word “easily”, and underlined it, but in no other way changed the definition.

Is it that we argue the same point, with exception that it conducts easily?

[Painless]

Isn't the difference between conducting and inducting thus:

Conducting - The flow of current through free electrons due to an electrical potential. For example, a battery with a wire connected - to +.

Inducting - The flow of current through free electrons due to the proximity of a magnetic field. For example, input and output coils of a transformer or the coils in an alternator passing the magnets.

Please note, I'm asking a question NOT trying to join the debate!

Russ.