New Dry Cell Idea

[H2OPWR]

another big cause of over heating is trying to push too many watts at a device that doesn't have enough surface area to support it ... in general, you will want to have 4 square inches of surface area for every watt of energy you apply ... so if you have a device with 1000 square inches, you really want to keep your applied wattage to no more than 250 watts ... in a 12v system, this would be about 20 amps ... if you over amp a device with too little surface area, the result will be heat, steam and foaming ...

anyway, this is a very long post that I suspect very few will find interesting so I will get off my soap box now ... hope this helps someone move forward ...

Thanks SmartScarecrow, I have been looking for the correct information as to the max allowable current.

[Painless]

SmartScarecrow,

To bring back an old question and argument / discussion:

Total surface area, do you count BOTH sides of the plates or just ONE side? In other words, how much area of steel you have or how much area is producing HHO?

Russ.

[SmartScarecrow]

SmartScarecrow,

To bring back an old question and argument / discussion:

Total surface area, do you count BOTH sides of the plates or just ONE side? In other words, how much area of steel you have or how much area is producing HHO?

Russ.

yes ... if it is a plate surface that is exposed to the reaction, tally it in your total surface area ... a bi-polar (neutral) plate has two surfaces, both count ...

[cully]

this is a very good bit of information and i think it explains a lot to me why my smaller cells foam and my larger cell works so well

in general, you will want to have 4 square inches of surface area for every watt of energy you apply ... so if you have a device with 1000 square inches, you really want to keep your applied wattage to no more than 250 watts ... in a 12v system, this would be about 20 amps ... if you over amp a device with too little surface area, the result will be heat, steam and foaming

[harabsnyder]

After reading this as well as realizing the only location I may mount on my accord would result in plates no taller than 5 inches, would it be fine to go with 5x9 with the intent of not really going over 15amps? it gives a little more surface area than 6x6 (1035 vs 828) count neutrals as 2x surface area. Or does that push onto to much SA?

I do not know what scarecrow meant by keeping the between plat voltage at 2v or slightly higher, and am at a bigger blank on how to figure that out.

[harabsnyder]

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2468

refering to my previous questions of the plate gap, is a 7 plate, 6 gap segment - NNNNN +going to be at 2v per plate gap at 12v total? and is that why the 5n's is the 'majic number'

thanks

[SmartScarecrow]

After reading this as well as realizing the only location I may mount on my accord would result in plates no taller than 5 inches, would it be fine to go with 5x9 with the intent of not really going over 15amps? it gives a little more surface area than 6x6 (1035 vs 828) count neutrals as 2x surface area. Or does that push onto to much SA?

I do not know what scarecrow meant by keeping the between plat voltage at 2v or slightly higher, and am at a bigger blank on how to figure that out.

your voltage per plate gap measured between any two adjacent plates, should be as close to 2v as possible ... in most cases, a 5N, or a setup with 5 neutral plates, will get you very close to this mark ...

as far a doing a short fat one, instead of a tall skinny one, I can see where you might have issues with the fluid staying level in the device ... typically in the rather harsh environment of an automobile, a tall skinny setup works best ... as the fluid jiggles around in the thing, there is little change in actual surface contact ... but that may not be the case with one that sits short and fat ... I can see where rather dramatic changes in fluid contact with the steel might be possible ... could even close off you gas outlet and cause fluid to be pumped out of your device ...

on the bench, a short fat one works every bit as good as a tall skinny one ... but I think that the short fat profile might need some tricks work well under the hood of a car ...

[Gary Diamond]

your voltage per plate gap measured between any two adjacent plates, should be as close to 2v as possible ... in most cases, a 5N, or a setup with 5 neutral plates, will get you very close to this mark ...

as far a doing a short fat one, instead of a tall skinny one, I can see where you might have issues with the fluid staying level in the device ... typically in the rather harsh environment of an automobile, a tall skinny setup works best ... as the fluid jiggles around in the thing, there is little change in actual surface contact ... but that may not be the case with one that sits short and fat ... I can see where rather dramatic changes in fluid contact with the steel might be possible ... could even close off you gas outlet and cause fluid to be pumped out of your device ...

on the bench, a short fat one works every bit as good as a tall skinny one ... but I think that the short fat profile might need some tricks work well under the hood of a car ...

Good point never thought of that

[bigjim56]

Hey SSC, can you weigh in on my setup here...

I measured the voltage from the alternator and w/the best gauge I could find, I got 13.96 VDC. I am using the pan liner (0.040) for gasket material versus the .060 neoprene. I realize I'm right on the edge w/the voltage, but with the thinner gasket material doesn't that allow it to run cooler, or do I have it backwards. I remember reading a thread where it was good to run thinner gaskets, but I don't remember the specifics.

I'm ready to build using the -NNNNN+NNNNN- plate configuration that daddymikey reccommended in an earlier post, but with the voltage close to 14VDC I was thinking maybe I need an additional N plate to allow for a cooler running cell. I need to stay away from the higher heat operation due to the pan liner gasket material.

With the 5N configuration that amounts to 2.33 volts/plate, while the 6N configuration drops that to 1.99 volts/plate. Unless I'm missing something, it would be better to go w/the 5N. I remember reading that once the volts drop below 2.0, the production drops off considerably, I don't want to jepordize that. I can offset the heat somewhat with a bigger reservoir and the cell placement.

I am thankful for the 5/16 supply and effluent holes now (H2OPWR plates), I've read the other thread where the closer gap results in cell starvation and cavitation of the electrolite, resulting in drawdown of the electrolite level within the cell. I'm battling that by maintaining the larger supply and effluent sizes of hoses and fittings throughout the cycle. I believe most use 1/4" for those holes. I hope this solves that supply problem.

Sure would appreciate any input SSC, H2OPWR said you have some experience w/a setup such as this.

Thanks,

bigjim56

[SmartScarecrow]

Hey SSC, can you weigh in on my setup here...

I measured the voltage from the alternator and w/the best gauge I could find, I got 13.96 VDC. I am using the pan liner (0.040) for gasket material versus the .060 neoprene. I realize I'm right on the edge w/the voltage, but with the thinner gasket material doesn't that allow it to run cooler, or do I have it backwards. I remember reading a thread where it was good to run thinner gaskets, but I don't remember the specifics.

I'm ready to build using the -NNNNN+NNNNN- plate configuration that daddymikey reccommended in an earlier post, but with the voltage close to 14VDC I was thinking maybe I need an additional N plate to allow for a cooler running cell. I need to stay away from the higher heat operation due to the pan liner gasket material.

With the 5N configuration that amounts to 2.33 volts/plate, while the 6N configuration drops that to 1.99 volts/plate. Unless I'm missing something, it would be better to go w/the 5N. I remember reading that once the volts drop below 2.0, the production drops off considerably, I don't want to jepordize that. I can offset the heat somewhat with a bigger reservoir and the cell placement.

I am thankful for the 5/16 supply and effluent holes now (H2OPWR plates), I've read the other thread where the closer gap results in cell starvation and cavitation of the electrolite, resulting in drawdown of the electrolite level within the cell. I'm battling that by maintaining the larger supply and effluent sizes of hoses and fittings throughout the cycle. I believe most use 1/4" for those holes. I hope this solves that supply problem.

Sure would appreciate any input SSC, H2OPWR said you have some experience w/a setup such as this.

Thanks,

bigjim56

I have been arguing this with Smack for some time now ... he is getting really good results with a 6N configuration ... but most of the EBN guys who have tried this have indicated poor results ... but one the guys who did sort of like Larry did and installed a separate high performance alternator and secondary battery was able to get good results with the 6N ... so I really dont know how to reply ...

best I can suggest is that the 5N is known to work well and is the safe, sane way to go ... everyone working with a 5N seems to be pleased with the performance ... the 6N is sort of cutting edge ... it may be worth trying if you have the resources ... but be prepared to back off to the 5N if you dont see what you are looking for ...

on a smallish device like you are talking with only 13 plates, that really tight plate gap you are using should be ok ... but I suspect that if you were to up the number of segments, maybe go to the 5N3 instead of your 5N2, you might have to increase your gap to maintain fluid level in your device ... if your plate gap goes dry, you aint gonna make no gas ...