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Thread: Ideal Plate Thickness

  1. #1
    dennis13030 Guest

    Default Ideal Plate Thickness

    I want to use SS plates(either 304 or 316 grade). I do not want to use a harsh electrolyte mix(maybe only baking soda if any). I want the plates to last maybe ten yens before falling apart. I also do not want over do the mass of these plates.

    What do you guys think would be an ideal thickness of the SS plates??

  2. #2
    ELECTR0N3RD Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dennis13030 View Post
    I want to use SS plates(either 304 or 316 grade). I do not want to use a harsh electrolyte mix(maybe only baking soda if any). I want the plates to last maybe ten yens before falling apart. I also do not want over do the mass of these plates.

    What do you guys think would be an ideal thickness of the SS plates??
    I hear 12 to 14 guage works pretty well.

  3. #3
    rmptr Guest

    Default

    Seven stainless steel blank receptacle covers will set you back $12 at HD.

    Best

  4. #4
    h-power Guest

    Default plates

    Dennis, if you use baking soda with your ss plates they will last from 25 to 100 hours. It also produces a brown sludge as the plates break down. Use of KOH or NaOH removes that problem and allows the plates to last.
    The number of plates and particularly neutrals will help to control the amp draw and temperature of the electrolyte.
    My cells are made of 16 plates in a KOH bath and draw 5 amps at startup. In an hour they are drawing 12 amps and producing 700ml/min. The electrolyte temp tops out at about 130 when sitting in a moderate air flow.

    I'm looking for plans to build an EFIE controller for use in OBD vehicles. Older diesels and carbureted engines don't need the controller but FI must have it to realize the fuel economy. Anyone have plans or has made a controller?
    Last edited by h-power; 07-04-2008 at 02:12 AM.

  5. #5
    rmptr Guest

    Default

    Dennis, you've presented a number of great info resources and I can see you'd really like to experiment with the mechanical aspects of generation.

    It seems your personal experience in electronics far exceeds that of many of us mechanics stumbling around through the electrons.

    Would you present your opinion of the EFIE devices available?
    DIY diagrams, kits, and packaged products?

    I'd also like to ask you to review PWM info for the group...

    ...I just saw a built PWM advertised for $65 and I know I probably cannot buy the components for that price, especially if I must track them down, or have them shipped from more than one source... and begin to assemble, with my own rudimentary electronic skills.

    It occurs to me, that at this stage of financially pressed experimentation, it could be best to focus design work towards operation at a 20 amp draw, or less, but never to exceed 30 amps.

    My logic is that almost any current production vehicle can withstand that additional draw upon the charging circuit and the average Joe can easily benefit from a mason jar HHO generator. We get a greener planet!

    Of course experiments go further, yet we're all still undecided about the best configuration for even a basic unit! It hampers progress...

    Thanks!

  6. #6
    dennis13030 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rmptr View Post
    Dennis, you've presented a number of great info resources and I can see you'd really like to experiment with the mechanical aspects of generation.

    It seems your personal experience in electronics far exceeds that of many of us mechanics stumbling around through the electrons.

    Would you present your opinion of the EFIE devices available?
    DIY diagrams, kits, and packaged products?

    I'd also like to ask you to review PWM info for the group...

    ...I just saw a built PWM advertised for $65 and I know I probably cannot buy the components for that price, especially if I must track them down, or have them shipped from more than one source... and begin to assemble, with my own rudimentary electronic skills.

    It occurs to me, that at this stage of financially pressed experimentation, it could be best to focus design work towards operation at a 20 amp draw, or less, but never to exceed 30 amps.

    My logic is that almost any current production vehicle can withstand that additional draw upon the charging circuit and the average Joe can easily benefit from a mason jar HHO generator. We get a greener planet!

    Of course experiments go further, yet we're all still undecided about the best configuration for even a basic unit! It hampers progress...

    Thanks!
    rmptr

    Thanks for the compliments.

    So far I have not dealt with the electronics portion of the HHO topics. Except the PWMs.


    I will say this about PWMs.

    1. Their use will not result in better efficiency.
    2. All they do is provide a means to easily dial down the overall input power being used.



    EFIE devices and O2 sensors

    I have never dealt with them.

  7. #7
    h-power Guest

    Default rmptr

    From my experience, once the amps start to get into the 20's heat becomes a serious issue. It can be dealt with by adding a cooling system (radiator and pump) but holding amps to just below 20 negates the need for the extra stuff. A 20 amp draw will not overly tax the average alternator but 30 will certainly affect the life expectancy of some of the components due to the much higher heat output.

    I too would like to hear from someone with an electrical engineering degree that has looked at the EFIE units and debunk some of their claims.

  8. #8
    dennis13030 Guest

    Default

    I think a good, experienced and trained ASE tech. should be able to give some insight on the EFIE units. I just don't know any.

  9. #9
    rmptr Guest

    Default

    Hey Dennis,

    My own circumstance is similar to many others. (I don't feel like the Lone Ranger!)

    I do residential service work for a living.
    Rising fuel cost for my primary vehicle is diminishing my income.

    Here I am at HHOForums... Ta Da!!!

    I've just bought components, as described elsewhere, but am still at the armchair stage... Partly for research, and partly for fear!

    If I damage my primary vehicle, my ship will go down faster than the Titanic! Yet, THAT is the vehicle I NEED improvement upon.

    Dennis, would you consider this:

    IF the HHO HOD generator functions to any effect, sensors in all contemporary vehicle will detect lean exhaust. ECM will then richen fuel mixture to compensate. This could negate much of the benefit of HHO HOD pertaining to the quest for mileage improvement.

    IMO, some method of modifying ECM is necessary to see best results from HHO HOD. This could be accomplished by re-programming the ECM with more suitable parameters which would compensate for the addition of HHO. Unfortunately, the required tools to accomplish this task are expensive, and certainly not cost effective for single vehicle use.

    That leaves us with the option of influencing the O2 sensor, and modifying it's input to the ECM.
    If an O2 sensor extender is effective, KISS principle is certainly valid.
    However, an EFIE device could allow more precise control.

    IMO, MAP and MAF sensor manipulation will be of significantly less value to implementation of these Level One HHO HOD systems.

    Regarding PWM's:
    Control over the HHO generation process within a cell, once optimal mechanical specifications have been achieved, will be advantageous for purpose of uniform production and subsequent delivery.
    It seems that amperage draw seems to increase over some time period related to heat rising, and vice versa. This must be controlled, for effect.

    IMO, PWM is a more precise, adjustable method of control, as opposed to fluid circulation for cooling. (Although, in the end, that may be found necessary, also.)

    Hopefully we shall soon come to a consensus upon optimal electrolyte concentration, and that particular aspect will no longer be employed as the secondary method of cell amperage draw.

    I DO hope my presentation will be fun for you to consider!

    And if anyone else is qualified to make determinations regarding the PWM's and EFIE's, it's not my intent to only pick Dennis' brain!

    ...If my balloon is drifting, anyone is welcome to shoot a couple arrows at it!

    Best

  10. #10
    Omega Guest

    Default

    It kinda looks like thread drift has inadvertently occurred. Back to the subject at hand: plate thickness.

    I think that 18 to 22 gauge is most suitable. Material thicker than that is harder to work with, especially drilling. Thicker material has slightly more surface area, but some experimenters actually cover the sides of their cells to limit "wasted" current (I'm not so sure I understand that, though). Zero Fossil Fuels on YouTube is a proponent of this practice.

    Thinner than 22 gauge seems to be more difficult to keep flat, it's seems to want to curl. That depends on the tools you have to work with, I would imagine.

    18 gauge is .0500 inch

    20 gauge is .0375 inch

    22 gauge is .0312 inch

    24 gauge is .0250 inch

    Some on the board outside the US are partial to .9mm, which is .03543 inch.

    A conversion chart can be found here: http://www.corrugated-metals.com/gaugeindecimals.html

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