Alternating polarity to dislodge gas

[AnActualPhysicist]

I know what you mean by "non ohmic" and runaway heating. I do think you're overcomplicating things though. For example, simple external resistance will prevent thermal runaway. I'm not sure why pressure would have an effect, since water is incompressible in this context.

Obviously I'm new at this. I'm not a chemist, so the electrolyte stuff is not well-known to me (beyond the approximate linearity of conductivity/amount). I have no idea about how deuterium would affect anything. And obviously I haven't had much time to look into more exotic plate arrangments / shapes. I only started looking at electrolysis at all about a week ago.

Now that I have muddied up the water I had better take a back seat and learn form those that have the formal training and background which I do not. LOL

There's no need for sarcasm... I'm not trying to talk down to anybody here, I just want to go at things in a systematic way. If you make a claim that bubbles degrade the efficiency of the reactor, then the least you can do is verify it properly (i.e. show that current decreases under conditions of constant temperature and voltage), since it isn't obviously true from a mathematical perspective (which I will provide shortly).

[AnActualPhysicist]

Ok, so here's a really simple mathematical analysis of the bubbles VS current issue:

Treating bubbles as cubes for simplicity, I split things into two regions, the Bubble Plane and the Open Plane.

In the Bubble Plane we have:

eA = sidelength^2 - b^2 where eA = "effectiveArea"
Resistance1 = rho * (b / eA)



In the Open Plane we have:

rL = totalLength - b
Resistance2 = rho * (rL / sideLength^2)

And finally:

totalResistance = Resistance1 + Resistance2

So what does this tell us? I'll plug in some numbers:

sidelength=1, rho=1, totalLength=1
So we are looking at a 1x1x1 cube total volume. We can get the resistance with no bubbles by simply setting b=0, which gives:

TotalResistance = 1 Ohm

Now let's set the bubble side length to 1/2 (which is really huge).

TotalResistance = 1.17

So even with a truly enormous bubble, the resistance increases by only 17%. Let's look at this with more realistic numbers:

sidelength=1, rho=1, totalLength=2 which indicates the distance between the plates better, and gives a bubble-less resistance of 2.

Using the more reasonable b=.1, we get:

TotalResistance = 2.001 or a .05% increase in resistance due to bubbles

So as far as I can tell, bubbles don't have a significant impact on the efficiency of an electrolytic cell. This is why I'm being skeptical.

[RTJ_Nair]

Forgive me, I'm quite new here so I haven't had time to read many threads. But I was under the impression that AC voltages don't work for electrolysis. Unless you're planning to use a small amplitude AC voltage with a large DC offset, like rectified AC with a smoothing capacitor. But wouldn't that just be electrically inefficient?

I guess my question is, do the bubbles attached to the plates actually lower the production rate? Have you actually measured a consistent and significant reduction in amperage when the bubbles appear? Are you certain that the two are really correlated, and what supporting evidence do you have?

Based on my knowledge of electricity I am having a very hard time seeing how bubbles could significantly impact the total resistance of the cell.

**Also, I wasn't able to open that file you linked, not sure why. Could you re-upload it as a pdf?**

Could you try changing the file extension to ".docx". The PDF file after conversion went to 250KB and was above the file size upload limit.

BTW, if you could open the file and refer to the three cases, for case-2, I am also doubtful as mentioned before but just wanted to try. I am well aware that an AC is detrimental to electrolysis since I have designed/prototyped a TDS meter in the past. Also, note the frequency in case-2 is comparatively very low (10 to 500Hz or should be taken even lower) and I want to try if it makes any difference. Recall that the gating pulses have very low frequency too. In Case-3, the alternation is delayed due to this. We need to find out if this delay can re-instate the cell back to a "t=0" state. If so, the alternation also works and hence will improve electrode life. All these cases will have to be explored.

The resistance acting in series within the cell that you were mentioning, though very small, could make a substantial voltage drop at higher currents as well as generate heat. This is one of the reason that I have inclined my thoughts towards a voltage driven cell instead of a current driven cell. I will initially start with pure distilled water for all 3 cases.

You will also notice that when the frequency is increased, the bubble size decreases and hence the bubble movement within the liquid slows down forming a cloudy situation in the water. Then density of the liquid decreases due to this and hence resistance increases. I mean, area decreases in the equation rho.L/A. Here perhaps, the ultrasonics (still only an option) will improve and was my contention.

RTJ_Nair

[myoldyourgold]

There's no need for sarcasm... I'm not trying to talk down to anybody here, I just want to go at things in a systematic way. If you make a claim that bubbles degrade the efficiency of the reactor, then the least you can do is verify it properly (i.e. show that current decreases under conditions of constant temperature and voltage), since it isn't obviously true from a mathematical perspective (which I will provide shortly).

Please lighten up. There was no intent of sarcasm but was meant as a joke to show that I am less qualified than you to discuss this subject based on anything else other than my experience and a little study.

I am very poor in math as well so your explanation will require me to take algebra again. The last time was 50 years ago with not much use for it in between. LOL Laugh here!!

Let me try and put what I understand of your math which is very little into some simple language, and let us see if we can both help each other. You are welcome to correct me anytime you disagree and we can either learn together or agree to disagree and still continue. That is the only reason I even started to post on this thread. I am interested in learning why things that I and others build and test in the field work like they do so I can explain them to anyone that wants to know using sound science. I have fund that there might not be answers in the normal main stream science in some cases.

This is where math and some science and actual tests do not completely agree but there has to be a good reason. We can agree on there having to have a reason hopefully.

Your math does not take into consideration heat. This one factor distorts the whole primes to me. All around the bubble is exceeding the maximum amps per square inch of active area to avoid plate deterioration, CR6 being formed, and heat by concentrating in a very small ring/area around the bubble especially if they are big. This excessive amperage in a small area further destroys the carefully conditioned layer on the electrodes that has brought to the surface molybdenum and nickel in the stainless steal giving it much less resistance than the chromium, iron and other higher restive elements that were present before this process. This happens by exceeding .5 amps per active square inch. Two things happen resistance on the electrodes goes up and the resistance in the electrolyte goes down. Production and quality of the HHO suffers when this happens. Instead of increasing more gas with higher amps you produce more moisture and less gas that is less active on top of it. There is more in this process but will leave it for now. I am getting tired. LOL

The math I believe is correct but I will have to take your word for that but it does not consider the above.

Pressure and Deuterium

Pressure has a very important part to play in the reactor and I will just mention a couple. It helps control the level of electrolyte which helps control current leakage out of the exit ports. Pressure also helps maintain a more even bubble size discouraging larger bubbles from forming in the electrolyte helping prevent bubble occlusion and actually increase production.

Deuterium is a little more complex and suggest you do some research on electrolysis using deuterium. I will say this that there is some minute amount of deuterium in all water more in some and is separated in the electrolysis process by the fact that it is heaver and remains at the bottom. After 1000's of hours of use you can have electrolyte that has more deuterium than normal. I am not willing to go further than that though.

Some of what I have described is not totally understood by me but have had many conversations with individuals who are chemists, physicists, and they have confirmed much of it. I am still learning so have no claim to having all the answers and welcome any help you can offer using your expertise. Electrolysis is a chemical process and so is difficult for me to get a handle on all of it. Slow but sure is my game.

Do not forget to smile you look better and live longer. I can use a good joke right about know. LOL

[myoldyourgold]

Nair Sir, if you have not seen this it might help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKqs5z2DrCk


http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...celerator.html

[AnActualPhysicist]

Please lighten up. There was no intent of sarcasm but was meant as a joke to show that I am less qualified than you to discuss this subject based on anything else other than my experience and a little study.

Sorry, I read it totally the wrong way. And I will try to lighten up

The .docx worked for me. Interesting system there!

So here's a fundamental question on my end. I keep reading people talking about using pulsed waveforms to improve the efficiency/production rate, but I don't see how that would work. Similarly, I've read the claims about certain frequencies boosting electrolysis by directly splitting the water molecules. Given that a microwave oven operates at 2.45 GHz and is only able to make H2O roll around, it just doesn't sound plausible. Also, the vibrational frequencies of water all start off in the infrared range, which is just below visible light (and totally out of reach for electronics). So, do you know what those people are talking about, or are they just full of it?

So it's hard for me to know what the costs/benefits of the waveforms in that document might be, beyond maybe shaking off bubbles and giving the plates time to cool during the off cycle. I would imagine that the non-alternating versions would still be best, for the usual reasons.

The resistance acting in series within the cell that you were mentioning, though very small, could make a substantial voltage drop at higher currents as well as generate heat. This is one of the reason that I have inclined my thoughts towards a voltage driven cell instead of a current driven cell.

Oh, when I said "external resistance" I was referring to putting a high-power rheostat in series with the circuit. Having a minimum resistance in the circuit means that you can't overload it with current, even if the electrolyte resistance goes to zero. And I too am building my system as a voltage driven one, for the same reasons.

As for the ultrasonics, using frequencies around 1kHz or less should be safe, and very possibly a good idea. I guess it depends on whether the suspended bubbles are hanging out between the electrodes or not.

I agree that I didn't take heat into consideration. Having not yet experimented with my own system, I'll reserve comments on how it affects the electrodes for a later time, and take your word for it for the time being. With regards to moisture/steam, couldn't you run the output through a condenser and send the runoff back into the cell?

Pressure has a very important part to play in the reactor and I will just mention a couple. It helps control the level of electrolyte which helps control current leakage out of the exit ports. Pressure also helps maintain a more even bubble size discouraging larger bubbles from forming in the electrolyte helping prevent bubble occlusion and actually increase production.

This also sounds very interesting and again I'll wait until I've actually seen it.

Deuterium is a little more complex and suggest you do some research on electrolysis using deuterium. I will say this that there is some minute amount of deuterium in all water more in some and is separated in the electrolysis process by the fact that it is heaver and remains at the bottom. After 1000's of hours of use you can have electrolyte that has more deuterium than normal. I am not willing to go further than that though.

Yup, I confirmed that this is the case. Heavy water has a slightly higher boiling point than normal water, so it would tend to get concentrated as the normal water evaporates. I couldn't find any info on what would happen in the cell when the deuterium concentration is high though.

Oh with regards to that video... the only way to increase the electrolysis between a fixed number of plates by "10-15 times" is to increase the amps. Which is what happens when he adds a voltage waveform of 100V! Of course, he can't leave it on for long since the whole thing would heat up and melt down.

And finally, yes I would be very happy to continue discussing with you! Good night.

[RTJ_Nair]

Many thanks myoldyourgold.

I haven't seen this youtube video before but have seen some of the ultrasonic cell enhancements. This seems close to what I was implying. What I could see outside the cell, the white box, looks like an electromagnet and the sound it produces seems to hover around 100Hz (50/60*2) or twice AC frequency. My first impression is that it is pumping in a lot of power to agitate the water molecules to cause the so called "electron avalanche" though I am not sure what that effect is. Surely it seems to have a significant bearing on the gas production.

Due to time limitations and other family commitments I am lagging behind schedule to complete the trial. I hope to get it going soon.

RTJ Nair

[AnActualPhysicist]

The trajectory of the water changes. That implies forces.

Perhaps, but not electromagnetic ones.

I can not believe that I hear this from a "physicist". How will you define something "non ohmic"?...

I know enough physics, so you can go into deep details. Are you an American physicist?

A non-ohmic system is any system that does not strictly obey I=V/R. For example, a diode is a good example of a non-ohmic system. Below the critical voltage, it passes no current, but the current rapidly approximates ohm's law above that voltage.

An electrolytic cell is also non-ohmic, in the sense that the voltage/current relation can quickly become nonlinear, due to bubbles, thermal effects, etc. It is also probably nonlinear in the limit of very high frequencies, due to the build-up of ions around the electrolysis plates.

And yes, I am in the USA. I am messing around with electrolysis because I want to build a welding/cutting torch, and it seemed like a fun thing to play with for a few weeks.

[myoldyourgold]

Hydrogen comes in two forms orthohydrogen and parahydrogen. The difference is the direction of the electron pair spin. If both are in the same direction it becomes orthohydrogen and the molecule is magnetic. It is my understanding that the surface that the gas is generated from can alter the percent of orthohydrogen which is the much more powerful of the the two. Normally in a well designed reactor the ratio is 75% ortho to 25% para at room temperature. Not being a physicist I have many question. This is one. If when water is split and the ortho molecule is magnetic then why can't you affect the water before the gas is made with magnetic fields? I use a reformer that is similar to the Ruskin patent and so does NASA to transform as much of the hydrogen to ortho as possible before it goes into the combustion chamber where it changes state releasing heat and forming much more powerful and highly reactive gases or in NASA's case just higher powered hydrogen/rocket fuel. The reason that NASA does this conversion at the last moment is because ortho can not be stored or compressed. When stored it changes naturally to para over time and if compressed self ignites at a pressures between 12 and 15 psi depending on the %. BE CAREFUL If some of this process can be done in the water/electrolyte before it is made so the percent of ortho is considerably more it could be a possible advantage. I am still not convinced that ortho can be more than 75% but do know it can be much less coming out of almost all of the reactors made and marketed. This is one of the reason so many see no gains no mater what they do. An ortho burning torch should be very interesting.

[AnActualPhysicist]

Well, I just looked at the molecular energy/mole of ortho VS parahydrogen. The difference at room temperature is very small, about 5%. The difference between pure orthohydrogen and the equilibrium mixture at room temperature is less than 2%.

If when water is split and the ortho molecule is magnetic then why can't you affect the water before the gas is made with magnetic fields?

Well, if I understand your question correctly - hydrogen gas, i.e. H2 is going to have different spin states than H2O since they are different systems. Basically they are not related. So for most intents and purposes water is going to behave non-magnetically - since it is weakly diamagnetic, you could levitate it in a strong enough field, i.e. 10T (insanely strong). For weak fields, one of the main effects of magnetic fields is that it increases the evaporation rate slightly, which is probably not helpful.

So water is *slightly* magnetic (as is basically everything in the world), but to see anything happen you would need a solenoid with 1000's of turns and very high current. In other words, you would be better off just making more gas.

I use a reformer

What is a reformer?

I'm not really sure how you would go about making more orthohydrogen, other than making it in a very high-temperature cell. Are there other methods? (beyond trying to align the spins with a powerful magnet)