Looking for a flow meter...

[Roland Jacques]

I like these RMB-21 (0.5-5.0 LPM) or 26 (1.0-10.0 LPM) you can use these inline so you can moniter performance on the engine. and the price is right. (Dont forget the to get the correction #)
http://dwyerinstruments.dirxion.com/Main.asp

[jm3000x]

Thanks for the good info! That's exactly what I am looking for.

[mileageseeker]

The numbers 21 & 26 are for series RMA not RMB. RMB series start with number 49 and go up. The RMA 26 (.5 -5 LPM AIR) is equivalent to a little more than 7 LPM HHO, the RMA 21 (1-10 LPM AIR) is equivalent to almost 15 LPM HHO. I consulted with Dwyer last September while building our flow bench. I bought two 150 mm VA series flow meters with 20 to 1 turn down ratio. At that time I was given the conversion equation; Q2 (LPM HHO) = Q1 (observed LPM AIR) times the square root of 1 over the sg of HHO (.414). This works out to be a matter of multiplying the flow meter reading in LPM AIR by 1.55 to get LPM HHO. I used this conversion for awhile but somehow the numbers just didn't jive with calculated flow rates. My HHO LPM numbers seemed too high. Getting back to Dwyer it was suggested I contact the actual manufacturer of the meters, Aalborg. After consulting with their engineering department I found that the equation I had been given was OK for a quick down and dirty conversion but not of high accuracy. I was informed that accurate conversion involved a much more complex set of equations. Since they actually made our meters they offered to take the flow tube numbers and the various floats being used and within a week supplied me with correct numbers. My partner and I are now in the process of creating conversion charts for RMB 49's & 50's and we also received a super deal on some VFA-4 ssv's. The 49's will measure to just less than 3.5 LPM HHO, the 50's and VFA-4's will measure to just less than 7 LPM HHO. We will have these available at the JARBOE"S MILL Alternative Energy Partnership “Show ‘N Tell” Conference on MAY 30 & 31. A few thoughts about floating pop bottles. When one takes into account the bottle bouncing off the sides of its cylinder as it rises, water surface tension, the changing buoyancy of the bottle as it rises, error in starting & stopping the watch, mass of the bottle, its easy to see the accumulated inaccuracy of this measurement method. This method is used by many and can prove useful as a relative measurement to see if design changes are beneficial or not. When using a bottle for continuous testing it must be repeatedly "reloaded" whereas when utilizing a calibrated flow meter, readings are continuously real time, making MMW calculations a snap.

[Roland Jacques]

This works out to be a matter of multiplying the flow meter reading in LPM AIR by 1.55 to get LPM HHO.

So did Dwyer say this number was good with there RMA & RMB series meters?

I was informed that accurate conversion involved a much more complex set of equations. Since they actually made our meters they offered to take the flow tube numbers and the various floats being used and within a week supplied me with correct numbers. My partner and I are now in the process of creating conversion charts for RMB 49's & 50's and we also received a super deal on some VFA-4 ssv's. The 49's will measure to just less than 3.5 LPM HHO, the 50's and VFA-4's will measure to just less than 7 LPM HHO. We will have these available at the JARBOE"S MILL Alternative Energy Partnership “Show ‘N Tell” Conference on MAY 30 & 31. .

For those of us who wont be at the show will you have a price and availability?

A few thoughts about floating pop bottles. When one takes into account the bottle bouncing off the sides of its cylinder as it rises, water surface tension, the changing buoyancy of the bottle as it rises, error in starting & stopping the watch, mass of the bottle, its easy to see the accumulated inaccuracy of this measurement method. This method is used by many and can prove useful as a relative measurement to see if design changes are beneficial or not. When using a bottle for continuous testing it must be repeatedly "reloaded" whereas when utilizing a calibrated flow meter, readings are continuously real time, making MMW calculations a snap.

bottle bouncing off the sides of its cylinder as it rises, water surface tension, the changing buoyancy of the bottle as it rises. I believe these effects are VERY minor, Less the 1% effect on values. Start and stop time is another story. (larger bottles being less effected by start stop times than smaller bottles)

I think the most overlooked factor is temperature and this can make a big difference, weather you use bottles or flow meters. Did you get any adjustment factors for varying Temperature's?


FWIW another source for inaccuracy in our testing comes from multimeters, volt & amp meters and how we read the analog ones... I tried 4 different meters testing for volts and i got 4 different readings. from 19-12.9 on the same test.

[mileageseeker]

So did Dwyer say this number was good with there RMA & RMB series meters? They told me this equation is used to convert LPM air to LPM hho. As previously stated I used this equation for a while last year and found it’s accuracy wanting. I use two different VA meters from Dwyer each with dual floats and after going to the maker of the meters I now have accurate conversions.

bottle bouncing off the sides of its cylinder as it rises, water surface tension, the changing buoyancy of the bottle as it rises. I believe these effects are VERY minor, Less the 1% effect on values. Actually quite a bit more than 1%, varying between 5 & 10%.

larger bottles being less effected by start stop times than smaller bottles. Larger bottles having much more error due to buoyancy and mass.

I think the most overlooked factor is temperature and this can make a big difference, weather you use bottles or flow meters. Did you get any adjustment factors for varying Temperature's? Temperature has less effect then you think, you should run your test gas through a bubbler and a dryer before measuring. Typical flow meters are calibrated at 70 F, a 10 to 15 degree temp difference makes virtually no measurement difference. Pressure is more critical, typical flow meters are calibrated at 1 bar. The meter exit should remain unrestricted; restrictions will introduce error to the measurement.

http://www.lightobject.com/Digital-D...-red-P237.aspx This is the meter I installed on our flow bench, checked it against two other DMM’s, it’s very accurate. The direct reading of watts is extremely handy for fast mmw calculations. With real-time flow numbers and direct readout of watts, just punch two numbers into the calculator and bingo “MMW”. It’s easy to take rapid repeat readings to plot an mmw vs electrolyte temp curve.

For those of us who won’t be at the show will you have a price and availability? We have some listed on our website, http://mileageseekershho.webs.com/, and will be expanding our offerings when we return from the conference.

[Roland Jacques]

I love that watt meter! I might have t get one of those.

We may have to agree to disagree about what does and does not effect measurements when it comes to using the bottle method.

10 + years of full time repairing and testing pneumatic components for a Delta Airlines gives me some confidence in the bottle method. We used and had many types of flow meters that were at our disposal, many tens of thousands of dollars invested in flow testing equipment. At times, when it came to more critical small flow measurements, we used the bottle method. It is an approved method of the FAA and our aviation engineering team.

The only back pressure created when using the bottle method is how deep in the water you submerge the hose's outlet, period.
Remember "Inches of water" is a unit of measurement for pressure, so if your hose outlet is 27" H2o below the surface, then your back pressure equals 1 PSI. Our bottles are not but about 15". So 15" H2o is the only possible back pressure it can have on our gas that we are testing.
Regardless what the bottle deals with, even if the bottle was made of lead and did not move at all, the back pressure could only be the distances from the surface of the water too the bottom of the bottle , 15" H2o or 0.5 PSI Max.

BUT If you believe the 0.5 PSI, or bumping the sides, or buoyancy and mass, etc, will effect your reading. You can simple lift the bottle (full of water) out of the water so that only the mouth of the bottle is still submerged, then raise the hose outlet so it right at the surface also. Now you will have zero back pressure, zero bumping, drag,... Now do your testing, you'll have the same results.
You can even take it further and move your hose outlet to the top of the bottle, you'll then have a negative pressure or vacuum acting on your gas... Velocity type flow-meters (measuring gas movement than converting that into volume) are convenient. But for accuracy, a straight forward volume device ( litter bottle) is going to be the better choice.

FWIW the plastic bottle is virtually neutral buoyancy in water, and the weight of the bottle (2 liter bottle> 2 OZ) can only create at most 1/20Th of 1 psi compression on the gases. I don't know of any cell output that is affected by 1/20th of 1 psi, or for that matter even 1 PSI.


I'll leave temperature alone, for now, But even small temps variance .... Ooops almost got going again

[Q-Hack!]

I'll leave temperature alone, for now, But even small temps variance .... Ooops almost got going again

A true sign of somebody passionate about HHO! Keep that advice coming.

[hydroxyNUT]

You know, I think the so-called "mentors" of this site totally missed the point that "mileageseeker" was making, and that is we must take advantage of the most useful tools available to us. I personally saw the mileageseekers flow bench in action at the HHO Games in Florida back in November, 2008, and the flow meters used were factory calibrated for and does accurately measure HHO gas volume. They took the time to show that the measured gas and calculated volume match when testing an efficient cell design such as with a dry cell. I watch all the online forums to learn as much as possible, and believe that this time you guys have your blinders on. I would suggest a poll be taken to see what other forum members think about remaining in the dark ages, opting for a "horse & buggy pop bottle" instead of a tool that could help any cell builder determine whether minor changes in a cell design make a positive or negative effect on its efficiency... but what do I know, I'm not a mentor.

Did you ever wonder why true HHO players such as Smartscarecrow have stopped posting on this site? Let's applaud people like Smartscarecrow, ZeroFossilFuels & MileageseekersHHO for having the foresight to make advances in this exciting new technology.

[Q-Hack!]

You know, I think the so-called "mentors" of this site totally missed the point that "mileageseeker" was making, and that is we must take advantage of the most useful tools available to us. I personally saw the mileageseekers flow bench in action at the HHO Games in Florida back in November, 2008, and the flow meters used were factory calibrated for and does accurately measure HHO gas volume. They took the time to show that the measured gas and calculated volume match when testing an efficient cell design such as with a dry cell. I watch all the online forums to learn as much as possible, and believe that this time you guys have your blinders on. I would suggest a poll be taken to see what other forum members think about remaining in the dark ages, opting for a "horse & buggy pop bottle" instead of a tool that could help any cell builder determine whether minor changes in a cell design make a positive or negative effect on its efficiency... but what do I know, I'm not a mentor.

Did you ever wonder why true HHO players such as Smartscarecrow have stopped posting on this site? Let's applaud people like Smartscarecrow, ZeroFossilFuels & MileageseekersHHO for having the foresight to make advances in this exciting new technology.

I will be the first to admit that I don't know everything. so, rather than flame-baste; post a link... It does wonders to help share information.

[HHO BLASTER]

You know, I think the so-called "mentors" of this site totally missed the point that "mileageseeker" was making, and that is we must take advantage of the most useful tools available to us. I personally saw the mileageseekers flow bench in action at the HHO Games in Florida back in November, 2008, and the flow meters used were factory calibrated for and does accurately measure HHO gas volume. They took the time to show that the measured gas and calculated volume match when testing an efficient cell design such as with a dry cell. I watch all the online forums to learn as much as possible, and believe that this time you guys have your blinders on. I would suggest a poll be taken to see what other forum members think about remaining in the dark ages, opting for a "horse & buggy pop bottle" instead of a tool that could help any cell builder determine whether minor changes in a cell design make a positive or negative effect on its efficiency... but what do I know, I'm not a mentor.

Did you ever wonder why true HHO players such as Smartscarecrow have stopped posting on this site? Let's applaud people like Smartscarecrow, ZeroFossilFuels & MileageseekersHHO for having the foresight to make advances in this exciting new technology.

Wow, strong words for a first post