I posted this thread on 7/15/08 to see if ANYBODY in the world had ever documented a vehicle's engine being damaged as a result of HHO injection. So far no one has come forward to provide any proof.
Do you mean to tell me that with all the experiments, good and bad that nobody has had to send their car to the repair shop as a result of goofing with their engine?
Please respond if you have absolute proof that HHO has EVER damaged an engine. This is a challenge to all the unbelievers out there... Go ahead, make my day. I'd really like to know before I put HHO in my SUV that I paid $47,000.00 for.
A friend of mine blew off his intake manifold. He built his unit in haste witout any saftey concerns. He left the HHO on (direct intake connection) for several hours. He assumed the HHO had disipated by morning but in the sealed environment of an intake manifold...no such luck. He turned the key and BOOOM...off came the manifold. Not sure I would blame that one on HHO. LOL
I have a question. How did the engine blow off the intake manifold? Let me try to walk through this scenario and dissect how it could have happened...
1. HHO experimenter installs an HHO device in their car with no safety mechanisms like ignition cutoff.
2. He goes for a drive. He stops and gets out of the vehicle for a while.
3. He gets back into the vehicle and turns on the ignition. The engine goes boom. The Intake manifold gets blown off the engine.
I'm skeptical that this could have happened. Here's my explanation as to why.
1. Assuming that he did not put any safety devices in place the device would have continued to make HHO gas until the battery ran down. I give you that one.
2. The HHO Gas would be pumped directly into the plastic air intake plenum or directly into the intake manifold if it was ported for a direct HHO injection. The HHO Gas would saturate the air inside the intake manifold and the air filter. I seriously doubt the cast aluminum intake manifold was ported for HHO considering the fact that they guy didn't have the fore-sight to put an automatic cutoff switch on the system. That's like trying to run a 500 Mile car race with bald tires.
3. No indication was given as to whether this engine was carbureted or Fuel Injected so I will theorize the effects of both systems.
4. If it was a fuel injected system: When the ignition switch was turned on the MAF Sensor wire could have ignited the HHO Gas. The possibility exists. What would have happened if that occurred? I would think the relatively thin plastic intake plenum would have separated from either the Air Filter housing or the cast aluminum intake manifold. In an explosion the weakest part normally gives way first. The intake plenum is held on by a simple compression ring. It can be pulled loose if you jerk on it really hard with your bare hands.
The second thing that could have happened is that the MAF sensor wire DID NOT ignite the volatile gasses built up in the intake manifold/Plenum. The gasses could have been sucked into the cylinders of the engine. Once the gasses were sucked into the cylinders the cam shaft causes the intake valves to completely seal prior to the compression stroke.
The compression stroke would be followed by the spark from the spark plug. This would be a Saturated Hydrogen/Oxygen/Gasoline environment. I can imagine only two things happening under this condition.
Thing 1, The engine holds together and the RPM races really high until the HHO gas is used up.
Thing 2, What else could happen is that the force is too great for the cylinder and something has to give. That would either be the piston, piston rings, piston connector rods, crankshaft or other... I can't see the intake valve being damaged. If the intake valve was not damaged then the flames could not have ignited the gas inside the intake manifold causing the intake manifold to blow off the engine.
5. If the engine was carbureted I can only think of one thing different from the above scenarios. If a MAF sensor existed on the carbureted engine and the MAF sensor wire ignited the HHO gas the flame would travel through the butterfly valves into the intake manifold. The resulting explosion inside the intake manifold would have resulted in a carburetor Backfire (Carb Fart). These happen all the time with Gasoline but if the force was great enough the butterfly valve could have been damaged or the carburetor could have been blown off the intake manifold entirely.
I just can't imagine any scenario where the intake manifold would be blown off the engine.
Do you have photos, Friend's name, Type of Engine or other Valid Proof?
Last edited by Smith03Jetta; 08-05-2008 at 09:38 PM.
you got balls man.. toying with a the flagship volkswagen..
As i mentioned in the other thread, there are many issues that arise when you change fuel mixture and lean out a motor. And there's also a big difference highway driving and acceleration. I know you think I should experiment before talking, but I've already blown up MANY motors and I've learned that lean conditions are lethal, and THINK HARD before modifying maps. : )
before I start babbling, my response point here is you may not see the damage of running lean by catastrophic failure. People doing HHO are typically not building race cars, they're building efficient cars, and likely drive them in an efficient manor.
Catastrophic failure typically happens running alot of boost with either a poor fueling map, or a machanical failure such as an injector or a pressure issue that causes the lean condition, ie, goodbye motor.
For the general HHO people running car lean by tricking management and hoping they're delivering enough HHO, they may not see the effects of lean conditions until down the road.. ie, burnt and pitted valves, burnt and pitted pistons, holes in pistons, etc.. the engine will still run with alot of damage, but you'll start losing compression over time with lean conditions. Lean conditions in with no doubt will decrease the life of all parts involved.
Now, as seen in many reports, HHO has been proven to work well in lean conditions! unfortunely I haven't found any data in regards to mixtures to support this. So hopefully everyone is delivering enough HHO to compensate for their lean condition, or they will find damage down the road.
Lean = Hot. most NA car engines are not designed to run hot. Performance motors use sodium filled valves and forged pistons to deal with excessive heat and stress. So the everyday motor will deteriorate faster under lean conditions.
Might want to add this to your tests - take a compression check before driving any further. This would be a good thing to monitor. just remember there are other factors that effect compression such as engine temp and oil presense on the rings. If you test the motor cold everytime, that should give you consistant results.
Now, water in the engine doesn't scare me too much, but we still use 50% alcohol to prevent corrosion in water injection systems. (methanol, hell, bmw washer fluid...). But regardless, I've also submerged several outboards and a 427 bigblock (twice, don't ask) and had no adverse effects after immediate running other than getting rusty on the outside. that's no bad internal effects (no compression loss, at least on the 427) but had to rebuild some accessories on all shortly after submersion.
bla bla, so hopefully i've added something good to the thread. although I haven't seen any damage caused by HHO, I can assure you that lean conditions cause damage over time. So if the HHO isn't doing what it should, or there's not enough HHO, it will damage the motor over time.
Wonder why I haven't hooked it up yet? hell, This is already the second motor in this car, first one went lean at 15 psi and didn't last 1k rpm.. There's no point in pulling fuel without me being sure I'm adding enough hydrogen, which requires a way to meter it.. or I need to get the self control to NOT floor it, but that just won't happen..
wow. just read the post above..
sounds like the MAF lit it up. For those who don't know, a maf heats an element and measure airflow and density by the amount of cooling (well, technically it's measured by the amount of current required to heat the element).
As for it blowing off the intake, hot damn!! ooooops. Even with the TB closed, HHO will probably get by. hell, probably doesn't matter where his injection point is, if it was left on for a period of time, it would reach the maf. .
guess he'll relay it off the ignition next time..
One way to make sure you are not running lean on heavy acceleration is to adjust the acceleration adaptation channel to push in more gasoline when you are accelerating only. At cruising speed the ECU will drop back to the primary and secondary fueling channels to control a lean fuel mixture.
Your comments are well thought out. I've also wondered what would happen if I set my engine lean and I'm stranded off somewhere and my HHO device quits producing GAS. I would need to go back and reprogram my ECU for the ride home or risk running lean for a while with no Hydrogen to support the lean mixture. That would call for an on-board fuel management system or I would need to keep my Laptop and OBD-II cable with me if I'm very far from home.
I purchased a very nice compression gauge a few months ago while I was rebuilding my Harley engine. I think it is a great idea to do a compression test on all cylinders. I can repeat the compression test every few months to make sure everything is doing fine. I also don't mind cracking the heads and inspecting everything to make sure it still looks good. If the compression test shows something abnormal I'll think about pulling the heads and taking a look-see. I hope I don't have to do that...
It happened alright on a 07 Colorado 4 cyl. He left it on from 6 PM until 1Am and then he remembered and went out and disconected his "roach clips" (LOL) from the battery. He injected the HHO right into his intake manifold via spare port previously plugged. My assumption is since hydrogen is so lite it migrated to and saturated the uppermost regions of his manifold and built down from there. Since the manifold is very sealed on the top, it is not out of reason to think 7 hours of HHO production in a sealed environment might be expolsive. I had a wondrus 4th of July with 2.5 gallon jugs and 7 minutes worth of HHO each. Additionaly the old fella used aluminum and copper for his electrodes which provide for very high output at lower amp draw (until they disapear). He said he was getting .6 LPM at 8 amps. With a 525 CCA battery and 8 amp draw the electrolizer will run a while. Either way it happened. I will see if he took pictures. By the way it happened when he turned the engine over. It also damaged his top end.
Last edited by Walt; 08-05-2008 at 10:01 PM.
He was not making HHO. He was making Pure Hydrogen. You gave the example of Aluminum electrode. That makes Hydrogen and most of the Oxygen is absorbed into the aluminum making Alumina as a byproduct.
Pure Hydrogen is not as explosive as HHO. I've proved that already. The problem that I see with his design is this... It does not matter that he disconnected the "Roach clips" on his battery. Aluminum will continue to produce Hydrogen Gas if left in the Calalyst/Water mixture. It doesn't have to be hooked up to electricity to make gas. I left a piece of aluminum in some NaOH and water for a few days. It was still making hydrogen yesterday. Right by itself. Every few hours I would go by and light the bubbles with my BBQ lighter...
dude, I love it. you're the first person I've ever met (including my crew at the VW stealership) that is not afriad of the Treg. "oh, well I'll just pop the heads off".. YTMND. EDIT: pop the 'head' off. I think that's a single flat head similar to the VR (inline V) but wider than the VR's 17 deg angle.
how do your plugs look? Any deterioration?
also, keep an eye on your spark plug gap. lean conditions will cause this gap to increase faster than normal.
I know LP causes plugs to turn a brownish color, but no idea with HHO.. thoughts?
Last edited by scirockett; 08-05-2008 at 10:15 PM.