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Thread: Those performance flash chips...

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    14
    These systems are no good. In my opinion reprogramming the ecu is the only way to go.

    Check out the following article from pgmfi.org -A tuning website for Honda/Acura

    "Piggy Back controllers allow stock ECUs to do things that they normally can't do, like run larger injectors or deal with boost. Remember that piggyback controllers work by altering sensor signals before they get to the ECU.

    Most of the time, the primary signal being messed with is the Map Sensor. This is critically important in a Speed Density car. The Map Sensor is used by the ECU to guess how much air is going into the car, and therefore how much fuel to supply in order to match airflow. When you "lean" out a car with an AFC, you are simply decreasing the Map Sensor signal - the ECU responds to the decrease in manifold pressure by supplying less fuel. When you "richen" a car with an AFC, you are simply increasing the Map Sensor signal - the ECU responds to the increase in manifold pressure by supplying less fuel.

    The change in fueling happens for a reason: if you look at a fuel table, Map Sensor values correspond with columns. When you increase or decrease the signal from the Map Sensor, you are simply making the ECU use a different column than it originally would have used. (see Understanding Maps if you need some help understanding reading Fuel and Ign tables)

    But wait, isn't the Map Sensor used for determining ignition requirements too? When you "lean" out a car with a Piggy Back, you also in all likelyhood advanced timing. When you "richen" a car with a Piggy Back, you also in all likelyhood retarded timing. Look at trends horizontally (as MAP changes) in an ignition table, and you will see why this happens. This helps explain why so many boosted cars running on the "AFC hack" have issues due to excessive ignition advance.

    The bottom line: Piggy Back Controllers suck because you cannot independently adjust fuel and ignition. Any changes to fueling will produce a change in ignition too, and often this is undesirable."-end

    Keep in mind HHO works best with retarded timing and a leaner mixture. Below is a screen shot showing the ignition and fuel map editing software called turboedit.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    627
    Good info, thanks.
    --
    Some days I get the sinking feeling that Orwell was an optimist!

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    8
    Quick question on the piggy back controller. I am wondering if there are any designed for full size GM 8 cylinder apps? Any suggestions?

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    1,079
    Quote Originally Posted by pbt308 View Post
    Quick question on the piggy back controller. I am wondering if there are any designed for full size GM 8 cylinder apps? Any suggestions?
    They have one for my 2001 Savanna van 5.7.
    http://yhst-19807630266082.stores.ya...aver--fs1.html

    But the info of Alex's about advancing timing should be of concern when being used with HHO. I'm not up on ECU stuff but i wonder if all MAP EFIEs would have the same potential advancing timing issues

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by BennyLava View Post
    I still have a lot of reading and learning to do before i would even know what to tell the guys at the speedshop who would be programming the chip. For instance i just learned today (from this forum) that some people are having trouble with their HHO generator not "gearing down" for lack of a better term. In short, they need the generator to sort of make less HHO at idle, and increase as RPM's increase. Although, i think this is a problem to be solved outside of the vehicle's computer system. Sounds like they just need some kind of electronic regulator (possibly built into the PWM) that keeps track of RPM's (it could work off the ignition coil) and increases or decreases voltage as needed. I saw that one guy here was having problems with his idle being way to high cause the generator wont produce less when he is idling.

    What else can yall think of? I need the complete list. Please help me think of any and all things that you think the chip could possibly help with. I personally know of two things it could do, it could overcome the O2 sensor problem as well as defeat the computer. Though this is likely all the same problem.
    my only idea would be to somehow use the signal from the throttle position sensor to control the amperage going to the HHO generator. This could probably be done by a slight modification to a Pulse Width Modulator.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    9
    Quote Originally Posted by BennyLava View Post
    For instance i just learned today (from this forum) that some people are having trouble with their HHO generator not "gearing down" for lack of a better term. In short, they need the generator to sort of make less HHO at idle, and increase as RPM's increase. Although, i think this is a problem to be solved outside of the vehicle's computer system. Sounds like they just need some kind of electronic regulator (possibly built into the PWM) that keeps track of RPM's (it could work off the ignition coil) and increases or decreases voltage as needed. I saw that one guy here was having problems with his idle being way to high cause the generator wont produce less when he is idling.
    A better idea! instead of lowering the amount of hho produced at lower rpms and idle, the fuel should be reduced. and as the rpms rise and the HHO generator cannot keep up more fuel can be added to compensate.

    But this sounds like its a job for a complete tuning where you have the ability to adjust the AFR and the Timing seperately.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    45
    So whats the answer? Is the Volo FS1 the magic pill to the hho ecu management problem?

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by soda_pop503 View Post
    A better idea! instead of lowering the amount of hho produced at lower rpms and idle, the fuel should be reduced. and as the rpms rise and the HHO generator cannot keep up more fuel can be added to compensate.

    But this sounds like its a job for a complete tuning where you have the ability to adjust the AFR and the Timing seperately.
    You have an interesting point here. Perhaps if one were to chip the ecu they should aim to be leaner at idol and richer at higher rpm while keeping the volume of hho constant. Quite easy to do with a chipped ecu!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Northern Ga
    Posts
    31

    Chips

    Anyone here actually use one of the HHOkitsdirect chips? Its a great pitch but to be frank it seems too well set up to market and that sets me off the product a bit. I have yet to find reviews elsewhere about their chip.

    http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/mileage...-generator.php

    I may contact them in a few weeks once I get my gen up and we will see how their customer service is. I also want to see if they will let me return it if I am not happy with the results.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Northern Ga
    Posts
    31
    Quote Originally Posted by BennyLava View Post
    You gotta watch those EPA ratings though. They are generally skewed. My mom's 07 accord four door gets 28MPG with no HHO generator. I tested it when i was considering an accord for myself...
    I think current mpg is kinda screwy. My first car a 79 accord 4 door got 45 mpg average per tank and I drove it as hard as possible. I thought I was the cooled ricer around as a senior in high school.

    How much can new cars blame the difference in mpg on powering of accessories?

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