Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 39

Thread: Liquid Hydrogen MPG

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,174

    Question Liquid Hydrogen MPG

    When ignited, hydrogen burns in air with a pale blue to colorless, nonluminous flame, yielding H20. When mixed with air, the flammability limit is 4-74% hydrogen. When mixed with oxygen, the flammability limit is 4-94% hydrogen.

    Care must always be exercised where there may be hydrogen mixtures with air or oxygen because VIOLENT EXPLOSIONS may occur. So we now understand that hydrogen burns with a very hot, explosive and yet invisible flame.

    To date, the cost has been prohibitive for providing commercial home type uses. Not to mention the generally accepted yet quite faulty idea of a CENTRALIZED source of power distribution. Such reliance on central systems simply sustains the current need for each of us to be dependent and supportive of these very large institutions.

    Eventually, society will see how freedom, independence and prosperity will come from the LOCAL generation of power and food wherever possible.

    The high temperatures produced when hydrogen reacts with oxygen or fluorine, plus the low molecular weights of the product gases, have made hydrogen a prime fuel for rocket propulsion, since rocket thrust increases directly with the temperature and inversely with the molecular weight of the exhaust gases.

    Some studies have indicated that the cost of transporting and distributing hydrogen by pipeline may be less than the cost of transporting and distributing electric power. Presumably existing natural gas pipelines and distribution systems can be adapted to the use of hydrogen.

    Although hydrogen has a net heating value of only 275 Btus per cubic foot, as compared with 913 Btus per cubic foot for methane, the lower density and viscosity of hydrogen make it possible for a pipeline to deliver about the same amount of thermal energy as with methane, at a somewhat higher compression cost.

    The thermal energy in hydrogen can be utilized more efficiently in home heating than natural gas, because hydrogen can be burned in nonconventional heaters, with no loss of heat, since its only primary combustion product is water. By using flameless catalytic heaters, nitrogen oxide can be eliminated. However, oxygen depletion of closed spaces will still present a hazard.

    Hydrogen mixed with gasoline has generated as much as a 50% improvement in overall efficiency. A test motorcar obtained 19 miles per pound of hydrogen. However, since liquid hydrogen weighs only 0.58 pound per gallon, the mileage figure was 11 miles per gallon of liquid hydrogen. The use of liquid hydrogen as a motor fuel thus presents several major problems despite its basic attractions.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,174

    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Jackson View Post
    lifted from the article solo33 posted......
    Yep!

    I wanted to point out how low the energy density of Hydrogen actually is.

    Do you have any idea of how many liters of HHO it needed to produce 0.58 pounds of Hydrogen?

    How much energy would take to liquefy it (assuming no explosion)?

    Hydrogen is a terrible energy carrier an certainly not a fuel!

    Our only hope is to use HHO as a catalyst.

    The numbers don't lie.

    The facts are not naysayers.

    BoyntonStu

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    510
    I think when they imply the energy content of Hydrogen, they are talking about the energy content through combustion. So, when you combine H2 and O2, you get water and energy. The energy they refer to in hydrogen, IS that energy. That being said, there is no energy in O2.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,174

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Philldpapill View Post
    I think when they imply the energy content of Hydrogen, they are talking about the energy content through combustion. So, when you combine H2 and O2, you get water and energy. The energy they refer to in hydrogen, IS that energy. That being said, there is no energy in O2.
    You are missing the point.

    Can you produce a pound of Hydrogen?

    BoyntonStu

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5

    But...

    You need to realize that HHO is quite a bit more powerful than plain old hydrogen. I can can go into quite a few examples but I will simply post the flame propagation speeds to give you an idea of just how energetic HHO is.

    Gasoline has a flame speed of 70ft/sec to 170ft/sec
    Hydrogen(H2) has a flame speed of 680ft/sec
    HHO has a flame speed of 8160ft/sec (mach 7.5)

    So in my not so important opinion you need much less HHO than everyone thinks they do to get the desired beneficial effects.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,174

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by zennerx View Post
    You need to realize that HHO is quite a bit more powerful than plain old hydrogen. I can can go into quite a few examples but I will simply post the flame propagation speeds to give you an idea of just how energetic HHO is.

    Gasoline has a flame speed of 70ft/sec to 170ft/sec
    Hydrogen(H2) has a flame speed of 680ft/sec
    HHO has a flame speed of 8160ft/sec (mach 7.5)

    So in my not so important opinion you need much less HHO than everyone thinks they do to get the desired beneficial effects.
    Can you produce a pound of HHO?

    BoyntonStu

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    954
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyntonStu View Post
    Yep!

    I wanted to point out how low the energy density of Hydrogen actually is.

    Do you have any idea of how many liters of HHO it needed to produce 0.58 pounds of Hydrogen?

    How much energy would take to liquefy it (assuming no explosion)?

    Hydrogen is a terrible energy carrier an certainly not a fuel!

    Our only hope is to use HHO as a catalyst.

    The numbers don't lie.

    The facts are not naysayers.

    BoyntonStu
    Stu, I respect your intelligence very much but there will be the day that hydrogen is our fuel of choice. You present in the box logic very well. Look outside the box. It is clean and can not be used up if taken from water and then burned. We just need to make it happen where there is less energy expended than produced. I know very well that you think this impossible. I however beleive there are out of the box ways to make this work.

    Larry

    Larry
    2008 Nissan Frontier 4X4 Nismo. 12 MPG baseline with my normal commute and heavy stop and go daily driving. Generator installed and working on 3/29/2009

    Up to 14.5 MPG with no enhancers. Still testing the effects of lots of HHO and no electronic enhancers.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    5
    Can I produce a pound of HHO? Of course I can as I am sure you also can. You asked a very open ended question, can you produce a pound of hydrogen in a minute, hour, week, year, compressed, non-compressed, liquefied?

    HHO is NOT H2. Here is where we all need to change our outlook on things.

    HHO gas contains 60,000 KJ/m3 of energy at 1 atm.

    Hydrogen(H2) gas contains 10,000 KJ/m3 at 1 atm.

    H2 is 1/6th the strength of HHO.

    The article you refer to is based on H2 NOT HHO, so none of it is relevant.

    Regardless I have done tons of mathematical equations and am of the firm belief that you can run a small 4 cylinder car at 60mph with 50LPM of only HHO or less with proper tuning of the engine. Im sure all the credibility that I didn't have just went out the window with that statement but I digress. Words are words and proof is proof, someday soon I hope

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    954
    Quote Originally Posted by zennerx View Post
    Can I produce a pound of HHO? Of course I can as I am sure you also can. You asked a very open ended question, can you produce a pound of hydrogen in a minute, hour, week, year, compressed, non-compressed, liquefied?

    HHO is NOT H2. Here is where we all need to change our outlook on things.

    HHO gas contains 60,000 KJ/m3 of energy at 1 atm.

    Hydrogen(H2) gas contains 10,000 KJ/m3 at 1 atm.

    H2 is 1/6th the strength of HHO.

    The article you refer to is based on H2 NOT HHO, so none of it is relevant.

    Regardless I have done tons of mathematical equations and am of the firm belief that you can run a small 4 cylinder car at 60mph with 50LPM of only HHO or less with proper tuning of the engine. Im sure all the credibility that I didn't have just went out the window with that statement but I digress. Words are words and proof is proof, someday soon I hope
    I agree completely Where were the text books when the wheel was invented. We overthink and rely way too much on our teachers and not enough on imagination and invention. The answer IS HERE! Keep up the positive thoughts someday things will change.

    Larry
    2008 Nissan Frontier 4X4 Nismo. 12 MPG baseline with my normal commute and heavy stop and go daily driving. Generator installed and working on 3/29/2009

    Up to 14.5 MPG with no enhancers. Still testing the effects of lots of HHO and no electronic enhancers.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,174

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Shane Jackson View Post
    May take a while.... but yes.
    How long is a while?

    How many Watt-hours would be necessary?

    How would you store it?


    All of this energy, time, and volume to approximate a little gasoline.

    I call this "Hydrogen Lay Away"


    BoyntonStu

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •