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Thread: Aluminum electrode plates

  1. Default Aluminum electrode plates

    I guess you here this enough, but Im just starting out here and probably asking some stupid questions, so bear with me.

    Im getting ready to make/install a 9 plate system on my 08 Wrangler. Probably with the +n-n+n-n+ setup. Im going to go with distilled or rain water with baking soda or salt. I dont need someting thats going be melting someones arm off. At least not untill I get a better understanding of what Im doing

    I know alot go with the stainless steel but I got some aluminum plates laying around and was wondering if anyones tried that. Also would there be any hazzard gas comming from something with aluminum.

    Also found out that I got a grand total of 4 02 sensors. 2 in front and 2 behind the converter. So does this mean that Im going to need two effies plus something to to use with MAP?

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by White Fang View Post
    I guess you here this enough, but Im just starting out here and probably asking some stupid questions, so bear with me.
    Welcome White Fang, out of curiosity, is this the same White Fang from Purgatory Iron Works?

    Quote Originally Posted by White Fang View Post
    Im getting ready to make/install a 9 plate system on my 08 Wrangler. Probably with the +n-n+n-n+ setup. Im going to go with distilled or rain water with baking soda or salt. I dont need someting thats going be melting someones arm off. At least not untill I get a better understanding of what Im doing
    You will want to change that plate configuration to +|||||- 7 plates total. The reason for this is that you don't want to generate heat. You only need 2 volts per plate gap to create HHO. With your +|-|+|-|+ set up you have 6 volts per plate gap. This means that 2 volts are generating HHO and 4 volts are generating heat. You would have a thermal melt down after 30 minutes run time.

    Go with the distilled water (rain water is cheap but hard to capture in a pure state.) I highly recommend using either NaOH or KOH. The reason NOT to use salt is that it contains Chlorine (NaCl) This will be released as Chlorine gas during electrolysis (Chlorine gas and aluminium engine parts don't mix well). Also, baking soda is NaHCO3 This will create both carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide gasses. The funny thing is, when you burn off all of the carbon you are left with NaOH, so I suggest you just start with it.

    I wouldn't worry about the danger of NaOH or KOH. You only need a few tablespoons per gallon of water. Since the amount of electrolyte concentration determines the current draw of the cell, start with less and work up to the amperage that you want. Most OEM alternators wont handle more than an extra 20 amps. I also recommend you use a good clamp on amp meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Fang View Post
    I know alot go with the stainless steel but I got some aluminum plates laying around and was wondering if anyones tried that. Also would there be any hazzard gas comming from something with aluminum.
    Aluminium plates won't last more than about 10 minutes in your cell. Both NaOH and KOH will eat the aluminium. (btw, it creates hydrogen in the process of eating the aluminium). For this reason it is best to use stainless steel. You can use any grade of stainless but for the cleanest results it is recommended you use 316L.

    The 400 series stainless will corrode in about 6 months of use. 304L stainless (most decorative light switch covers) last a little bit longer. My 316L has been running for more than a year now and is still holding up quite well.

    Quote Originally Posted by White Fang View Post
    Also found out that I got a grand total of 4 02 sensors. 2 in front and 2 behind the converter. So does this mean that Im going to need two effies plus something to to use with MAP?
    You will only need to worry about the two before the catalytic converter. The two on the after side only inform the ECU how well the cat is doing its job. They do make EFIE's that can control two O2 sensors, but I have two EFIE's that are easy enough to adjust. I have tried the MAP enhancer, but prefer the EFIE's over the MAP as you don't have to fiddle with it while driving.

    NOTE: Get yourself an EGT before you start fiddling with EFIE's and such. You will want to know the exact temp the engine is running at before modification so that you wont burn up your engine when testing. You will want a good baseline at both idle and at highway speeds.
    Last edited by Q-Hack!; 07-20-2009 at 07:31 AM.
    --
    Some days I get the sinking feeling that Orwell was an optimist!

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Q-Hack! View Post
    Welcome White Fang, out of curiosity, is this the same White Fang from Purgatory Iron Works?
    Oddly enough I have been known to do a little 'blacksmithing' but no, I've never heard of Purgatory Iron Works.



    You will want to change that plate configuration to +|||||- 7 plates total. The reason for this is that you don't want to generate heat. You only need 2 volts per plate gap to create HHO. With your +|-|+|-|+ set up you have 6 volts per plate gap. This means that 2 volts are generating HHO and 4 volts are generating heat. You would have a thermal melt down after 30 minutes run time.
    Oh, didnt know I would be making that much heat. Just wondering, what would be the ideal gap between the plates, I got some 1/16 nylon washers as well as a few 1/8. But if I need a different size, no problem, Id rather get it right the first time.

    Go with the distilled water (rain water is cheap but hard to capture in a pure state.) I highly recommend using either NaOH or KOH. The reason NOT to use salt is that it contains Chlorine (NaCl) This will be released as Chlorine gas during electrolysis (Chlorine gas and aluminium engine parts don't mix well). Also, baking soda is NaHCO3 This will create both carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide gasses. The funny thing is, when you burn off all of the carbon you are left with NaOH, so I suggest you just start with it.

    I wouldn't worry about the danger of NaOH or KOH. You only need a few tablespoons per gallon of water. Since the amount of electrolyte concentration determines the current draw of the cell, start with less and work up to the amperage that you want. Most OEM alternators wont handle more than an extra 20 amps. I also recommend you use a good clamp on amp meter.



    Aluminium plates won't last more than about 10 minutes in your cell. Both NaOH and KOH will eat the aluminium. (btw, it creates hydrogen in the process of eating the aluminium). For this reason it is best to use stainless steel. You can use any grade of stainless but for the cleanest results it is recommended you use 316L.

    The 400 series stainless will corrode in about 6 months of use. 304L stainless (most decorative light switch covers) last a little bit longer. My 316L has been running for more than a year now and is still holding up quite well.
    I was afraid the aluminum would be too soft



    You will only need to worry about the two before the catalytic converter. The two on the after side only inform the ECU how well the cat is doing its job. They do make EFIE's that can control two O2 sensors, but I have two EFIE's that are easy enough to adjust. I have tried the MAP enhancer, but prefer the EFIE's over the MAP as you don't have to fiddle with it while driving.

    NOTE: Get yourself an EGT before you start fiddling with EFIE's and such. You will want to know the exact temp the engine is running at before modification so that you wont burn up your engine when testing. You will want a good baseline at both idle and at highway speeds.
    A buddy got me into this and the reason I asked about the EFIE's was because hes got a 01 Tahoe and siad he hasnt done anything with his o2 sensors and is seeing a 3-4 mpg increase. But with my jeep being newer, I doubt I'll see any results without any modification to my sensors.

    Thanks, you've been a great help!

  4. Default

    He should see a lot more, btw you can get away with 6 neutrals, on gas vehicles with O2 sesnors, I always use a 15 plate design, -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- and an efie (no map) and never see a 3-4 mpg increase usually double hwy and 85% city

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