HHO/MPG Theory Debate

[AlexR]

a single voltage divider would suffice(two resistors and MAYBE an opamp to buffer the votlage).

would that be a efie?

Boltazar,

an EFIE would do what you describe, but it's operation is a bit more involved. Not too complicated though.
Doing anything to make more efficient combustion such as adding BG, additional vapor, water injection, etc will result in more free oxygen in the exhaust. The oxygen sensor reads this and the computer interprets it as a lean mixture. To correct this the computer dumps in more fuel resulting in a loss of mileage. The EFIE adds a small voltage to the oxygen sensor wire going to the computer to offset the false lean signal and allowing the vehicle to get better mileage. There are now EFIEs for both narrow and wide-band oxygen sensors.

One of these is highly recommended for gaining mileage with any fuel saver.

Some people recommend disconnecting the oxygen sensor completely. Personally I wouldn't recommend this. For one thing, you won't pass emmissions without it.

[AlexR]

AlexR, "Brown's Gas" = "HHO" = 2H2 + O2. That's pretty well established. It's not anything super special or magical, but apparently, the addition of it into a gasoline/air mixture gives some benefits. Since we know what the stuff IS, this conversation is about what it DOES.

Where do you get the info that BG consists of only 2H2 and O2?

[Philldpapill]

I'm not completely sure about what an EFIE does... From what I gather, it's a little box with some cool looking circuitry that is more to impress the buyer with the techy look, rather than to do something amazing... I could be wrong.

[Philldpapill]

AlexR, to make "Brown's Gas" or "HHO", you are doing electrolysis, right? And when you electrolyze water, the process is 2(H20) + Energy -> 2H2 + O2... It's pretty straight forward.

Why do you think it is anything else?


Also, as for the EFIE - Yeah - according to AlexR, they consist of a couple of opamp circuits. A simple voltage adder circuit, and maybe a buffer? How much do EFIEs run anyway? >$20?

Also, AlexR - what are you defining "combustion efficiency" as??? When talking about energy effiency, it's "Energy Out divided by Energy In". What would be "inefficient combustion"? Are you talking about something like "Fuel Burned divided by Fuel Injected"? If that's the case, efficiency is always going to be in the ballpark of 99% if there is enough oxygen present. The ECU is looking at the remaining oxygen in the exhaust to determine if there is enough oxygen in the combustion. Personally, I think the use of the EFIE is running the fuel mixture a little more lean than the manufacturer suggests(engine life expectancy is reduced), resulting in increased mileage, at the expense of the engine life...

[M34me]

Getting off topic here. I am very interested in what's happening in the chamber b4 we look into how to battle the ECU.

So if the combustion is happening faster, wouldn't that suggest changing the timing?

Or does the combination of gasoline and HHO somehow create a more powerful mixture?

As for the complete burn part though. I indexed the plugs on a 4.0 L Explorer as well as my 5.0 L Mountaineer and saw noticeable gains. Around 10% in the 4.0 and at least 5% in 5.0. All this practice does is expose the spark gap to the fuel to provide a larger ignition source resulting in a either a more complete burn or a faster burn, or perhaps a little of both.

[biggy boy]

Getting off topic here. I am very interested in what's happening in the chamber b4 we look into how to battle the ECU.

So if the combustion is happening faster, wouldn't that suggest changing the timing?

Or does the combination of gasoline and HHO somehow create a more powerful mixture?

As for the complete burn part though. I indexed the plugs on a 4.0 L Explorer as well as my 5.0 L Mountaineer and saw noticeable gains. Around 10% in the 4.0 and at least 5% in 5.0. All this practice does is expose the spark gap to the fuel to provide a larger ignition source resulting in a either a more complete burn or a faster burn, or perhaps a little of both.

Did you end up using very many spacers?

Also you mentioned adjusting the timing!
With the introduction of HHO
Would you want to advance the timing? or retard it?

Edit:
I have been doing some reading on ignition timing.
Advancing the timing ignites the air/fuel charge earlier before the piston reaches top dead center (TDC) on the power stroke.
Retarding the ignition ignites the air fuel charge later in the power stroke, closer to top dead center.
Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

when setting the timing with HHO being a factor you would want to set it as close to TDC as you can, depending on the ammount of HHO being introduced into the cylinder. normally timing is set just before TDC because of the slower burn rate of gas, this is also another one of the many ways a IC engine has waisted energy using gas btw, but when you add the HHO and depending on the ammount, you would want to advance it as close to TDC as you can, of coarse not so much that you get pinging. Im not sure if the ECM will do this on its own or not. Im guessing no but I could be wrong. I use to have a 83 chevy p/u with a 350 v8 in it and I had a tachometer that I could change the timing on from the tach in the cab of the truck. And this is one of the many reasons im using my older junkier truck for my HHO project. but im still going to battle the ECM untill i win on the 08 charger so I can burn fuel more efficiently in style

[biggy boy]

Helz
thanks for the info.

Glen

[M34me]

Did you end up using very many spacers?

Also you mentioned adjusting the timing!
With the introduction of HHO
Would you want to advance the timing? or retard it?
Apparently an engine is more efficient when the ignition is advanced, but not to the point of knocking and pinging. So will HHO allow the timing to be advanced?

Glen

Spacers come in 3 different sizes allowing for 1/3 turn each size. Then you may need to torque and retorque a couple times to get it just right. Only one spacer per plug.

And I don't know about the timing, just something to consider.

[Philldpapill]

Guys, let's do a thought expirement with regards to ignition sources... What happens in the cylinder(with fuel) when the spark plug sparks? It initiates a propogating combustion wave. Does the ignition affect the propogating wave an inch down from the spark plug? Once the combustion wave is established, does the size/exposure of the spark make a single bit of difference?

I could be dead wrong about this, but this idea that a different "type" of spark has an affect on the end result, is like saying that starting a bondfire with a blowtorch makes a bigger bond fire than using a book of matches to start it. Once the bondfire is lit, the way you lit it really doesn't make a difference. All a sparkplug does, is initiate the reaction. It dumps energy into the reactants(fuel and oxygen) to initiate a reaction. Once the reaction starts, the sparkplug doesn't make much difference. Now, if your cylinders are MISSING, then sure - a better sparkplug will make a difference because in some cycles, the reaction isn't starting.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. Back to the theories of HHO?