HHO/MPG Theory Debate

[biggy boy]

Thanks M34me

I'm reading up on engine timing, to understand what is advanced and retarded.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

Glen

[biggy boy]

Guys, let's do a thought expirement with regards to ignition sources... What happens in the cylinder(with fuel) when the spark plug sparks? It initiates a propogating combustion wave. Does the ignition affect the propogating wave an inch down from the spark plug? Once the combustion wave is established, does the size/exposure of the spark make a single bit of difference?

I could be dead wrong about this, but this idea that a different "type" of spark has an affect on the end result, is like saying that starting a bondfire with a blowtorch makes a bigger bond fire than using a book of matches to start it. Once the bondfire is lit, the way you lit it really doesn't make a difference. All a sparkplug does, is initiate the reaction. It dumps energy into the reactants(fuel and oxygen) to initiate a reaction. Once the reaction starts, the sparkplug doesn't make much difference. Now, if your cylinders are MISSING, then sure - a better sparkplug will make a difference because in some cycles, the reaction isn't starting.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. Back to the theories of HHO?

I agree it doesn't makes a bigger bond fire, but having the right spark in the right place does lights it sooner.
Time is of the essence when the engine is turning over several thousand times a minute, you want to ignite the the mixture as soon as possible before it gets pushed out the exhaust.

You are right that once the bond fire is lite who care, you have all night to drink bear, roast marsh mellows and roast wieners. But with ICE we don't have this time luxury.

[Helz_McFugly]

sorry off topic but i wanted to toss this in.

setting timing on a motor that has a destributor is very easy with a timing light. if your car doesnt have a destributor the timing is set by the ECM from readings sent by sensors on the flywheel and/or crankshaft and can only be set/changed by an ECM interface. thats where my knowledge of the timing ends. i dont know if the ECM changes the timing based off readings from the other sensors. What would really be nice is if we had a EFIE that used a pc as its interface and could be adjusted by the pc. i know proformance junkies use some awesome computer interfaces, I dont know if there is one that would control sensors such as 02, MAP, MAF, BARA, Coolant temp. But IMHO it would be the fix for ALL cars with an ECM if you had an interface on a pc that would give you a GUI image of each sensor and let you adjust it. hint hint to any programmers and electrical engineers.

[Philldpapill]

I like your thinking, Helz... I think a device could be made that adjusts the timing in between the ECU and the ignition system... Basically, it would watch for the signals from the ECU saying "ok, fire!". It would then bypass those signals, and either wait a little LONGER, or a littler earlier - then send IT'S signal to the ignition system telling it to fire.

Anyone interested in such a device? I could rig a GUI up as well, so you can edit your own timing tables...

EDIT: This device would have 50ns resolution, meaning the advance/retard feature would only be in increments of 50nano seconds... So, you could advance/retard the timing by 50ns, 100ns, 150ns, etc. but not something like 63ns. Is that fast enough(I'm not a car guy)?

EDIT #2: I'm just thinking about this... Even if the car is running at 5000rpms, I think it is firing 8 times per cycle for a 4 cylinder(it sends a spark between exhaust and intake as well - not just compression/power stroke). If that's the case, then it's sending a pulse at 40kHz... that leaves 25microseconds in between pulses... That gives a resolution of 500 "steps" in between pulses to adjust the timing...

[biggy boy]

I like your thinking, Helz... I think a device could be made that adjusts the timing in between the ECU and the ignition system... Basically, it would watch for the signals from the ECU saying "ok, fire!". It would then bypass those signals, and either wait a little LONGER, or a littler earlier - then send IT'S signal to the ignition system telling it to fire.

Anyone interested in such a device? I could rig a GUI up as well, so you can edit your own timing tables...

something like this maybe?
Only thing it doesn't let you interact with the ECM yourself. or have a GUI.
But it does according to the info one the website do what you are talking about.

http://yhst-19807630266082.stores.ya...hoedition.html

There is also this that does have a GUI

http://www.hydroxycorp.net/shop/item.aspx?itemid=33

[Helz_McFugly]

I was visioning something that looks a bit like this

http://tiny.cc/2P3oK

[biggy boy]

OK that looks cool, so you would use it from a laptop in the vehicle?
Would need to make an interface from the computer to the OBDII port
I guess?

[Helz_McFugly]

exactly,

I know Ive seen these types of software on nascar or drag racing that they hook up to the car and can adjust and monitor whats going on. Its just an idea. im going to try and find what software they use and try and obtain a copy and see what it does.

[M34me]

I don't think that discussing timing is off topic in this discussion at all. I think it has a lot to do with what's going on in the chamber. I'm a little short on time to look at the links provided right now. I'll take a look soon.

As for the bonfire scenario. As biggy said, we don't have the luxury of time here.
The larger the ignition source, the faster you will light the gas. And I would guess that there is a definate possibility of the same or maybe a little more energy released in a shorter amount of time. Which in turn could result in a greater amount of pressure released on the piston.

Please take a look at my last post under "let's talk engines"
I think the fact that some of the useless air that is being displaced by the hho is also a factor. HHO provides energy, air doesn't. (at least not 80% of it.)

[Philldpapill]

I still stick to the bonfire analogy. Guys, when that spark starts, we are talking about MAYBE a couple of nanoseconds between spark plugs. The SPARK itself doesn't add to the energy released. I mean, comparing a generic sparkplug to a high-performance sparkplug... The time it takes for the spark to initiate is still about the same, so it's not a matter of time in this case. Are you saying that if you could, hypothetically, use a stopwatch and measure the time from the moment that the ECU puts out the FIRE signal, to the moment when combustion begins, that this time is dependent on the type of spark being used? I agree with that, but again, we are talking nano seconds... A spark gets up and goes pretty darn quickly.