Debate: Batteries vs alternator to power HHO cell

[oicu812]

the only thing you're correct about so far is the stupidity. If you think electricity is cheaper comming from your car why don't you pull your electric meter and run your house off your car. do a little research and find out how much you lose in mpg simply running your daytime running lights.Really phill, you need some profesional help.

[Philldpapill]

oicu, it is cheaper. We just went over this!

An average 2.0L 4 door sedan, going 60MPH, uses about 30-40hp to maintain the speed. If you travel for one hour, you are using 30-40hp-hours. There are 746W in one horsepower. Therefore, your car is using the equivalent of 22.38-29.84kWh EVERY HOUR. If you were to buy it from the electricity grid, that would be $2.6856-$3.5808 PER HOUR, or roughly 30 miles(assuming 30MPG).

Your car may use more or less hp, so it MIGHT be cheaper to use the grid if your car is very inefficient.

Now, oicu, explain to me what I'm missing. Maybe I do need help, because you are making me feel like I'm in a nuthouse.

Does anyone else understand this??? At current gas prices, a totally electric vehicle would probably cost more. If fuel prices went up by 20% or so, then sure, it would be more economical to use an EV.


EDIT: As per your last question, oicu, that's not a bad idea... However, factoring in the extra maintanence required for running my car 24/7(can't let that freezer thaw!), it might end up costing more... I'll check it out and keep you posted.

[Philldpapill]

Also, in regards to the nighttime running lights..... Assuming each headlight pulls about 10A, that's 20A for the headlights, and maybe another 10A for the misc. other lights... 30A for the daytime lights. I've always thought you would lose SOME MPG, but let's calculate that out for a second since you are asking to be shot down - again.

30A * 12V = 360W.
360W = 0.4826 horsepower
Average highway hp needed: 30-40hp
Percentage increase in hp with running lights: 1.66 - 1.21%

Assuming 30MPG, running your lights would change your mileage by:
-------------------------------
-------> 0.5 - 0.36MPG <-------
-------------------------------

Not a whole lot of change, but yes, it can affect your mileage a fair amount. If you are using an HHO cell, it will also affect your mileage around the same amount(assuming 30A useage), but you should make up more than this amount by using the HHO.

EDIT: As a comparison, your AC uses a few hp. This can affect mileage as much as 3MPG.

[IM2L844]

Yes
I'm too late for four (IM2L844)
Can you give use some example numbers?

You got real close, but it's "I'm too Late for FORE"

It has to do with my propensity to be late for tee time and my horrible slice once I get there.

First, I would like to say that I'm nowhere close to breaking even. I've spent way more money trying to develop a proof of concept than I will be able to recover anytime soon, but that holds true for all pre-production R&D efforts...even for large companies that are already geared up with well equipped R&D departments.

Anyway, I have an '88 Chevy Nova with more than 320,000 miles on it that I use for research. I actually get a kick out of driving it though. I've been collecting data for almost 2 years in all kinds of driving, traffic, road and weather conditions as well as various electrolyzer set ups. My results are not due to subconscious driving behavioral modifications or excessive tire pressures.

The bottom line is 32 MPG without HHO. 36 MPG with HHO powered by my vehicle's electrical system and 43 MPG with HHO supplied without a load imposed on my vehicle's electrical system.

[Philldpapill]

Hmmm, if you've got good data, then that goes against conventional theory. Interesting... I always like it when something does NOT work out the way it is intended. Theory in a perfect world is great, but the real world is the ultimate judge of what will or will not work.

If your unloaded gain is 43mpg, then thats an 11MPG increase - over 33%! The question then, is WHY is your system loading your engine so much? What kind of current/power are you pulling, IM2L844? Maybe your system could be modified to operate more efficiently, so that you can load your electrical system/engine, but not as much and STILL get nearly the same gains as your unloaded HHO production?

[biggy boy]

Really phill, you need some profesional help.

LOL

It would be good to have one of those kWh meters like the GREAT
Smack has in his video. Due to the fact that the charger continuously consumes less and less power in the process of charging a battery, in your example the charger starts out at ten amps but goes down to less then 1/2 an amp by the end of the charge cycle.

Glen

[biggy boy]

I've spent way more money trying to develop a proof of concept than I will be able to recover anytime soon, but that holds true for all pre-production R&D efforts...even for large companies that are already geared up with well equipped R&D departments.

Yes very true on the cost of R&D

About 7 years ago I work on a team helping out with the setup of injection molding machines, presses,
material mixers and material metering scales, to develop a hydrogen fuel cell.
I did all the electrical hook-ups, electrical maintenance and custom cabinet and controls for the equipment.

The cells were made out of special resins and carbon.
Injection molded into a plate/cell and compressed under tonnage.

We worked on this project with DuPont for about 2-3 years.
Several employees from DuPont would come every day to our plant
and make, test and modify there design for the cells. Lots of trial and error and money going out the window in waste and scraped cell.
This all took place in the "secret lab" there was only a hand full of people that had access via a card reader.
They gave up after several years of doing this, at a very hefty cost.
But it was really cool seeing it all and learning about the process.

Glen

[jerrygoldsmith]

So, first reading this thread I was going to use my Alternator to power my system. Then batteries in the trunk. Then alternator.

Now I'm thinking to avoid more confusion, I'll just build a nuclear reactor in my car and just use that

Anyhow, if the efficiency of the alternator is such a big deal, would adding another 12v device (@30amp) really drag it down as much as that? I've seen people with dozens of devices (Ham radios, scanners, cb's, all with amps) in a dash hooked up and it doesn't seem to hurt his car over the last 3 years.

[Roland Jacques]

LOL

It would be good to have one of those kWh meters like the GREAT
Smack has in his video. Due to the fact that the charger continuously consumes less and less power in the process of charging a battery, in your example the charger starts out at ten amps but goes down to less then 1/2 an amp by the end of the charge cycle.

Glen

You can get them at Harbor freight $24.99. They are handy.

[Roland Jacques]

Hmmm, if you've got good data, then that goes against conventional theory. Interesting... I always like it when something does NOT work out the way it is intended. Theory in a perfect world is great, but the real world is the ultimate judge of what will or will not work.

If your unloaded gain is 43mpg, then thats an 11MPG increase - over 33%! The question then, is WHY is your system loading your engine so much? What kind of current/power are you pulling, IM2L844? Maybe your system could be modified to operate more efficiently, so that you can load your electrical system/engine, but not as much and STILL get nearly the same gains as your unloaded HHO production?

Yeah i agree, it may be worth doing some more research into this.