Need some guidance on designing a cell for my car

[Buster]

Thanks!

yup, it's a software tuning program to edit the honda ecu rom files, or do real time tuning if you have a emulator attached to it. The emulator is too expensive for my needs. I'm going to datalog then edit the rom, and re-burn the chip.

Buster,

Thanks for the info! So you feel a 13 plate two cell design should be more than adequate in terms of HHO production? Is the reason you went with a 7 plate cell, is that it will give 2v's per plate? I'll look into a PWM module as well to regulate it.

JerryGoldSmith,

Yeah, I have a MPGduino on order as well to tell me MPG. it measures the vehicle speed and injector duty cycle to calculate the MPG.

Yes, the 13 plate config will give a better volt per plate than Smack's 16 plate plan does. He gives those plans because it makes for a 'calmer' cell, so can run without a PWM. But it is possibly better for your situation to have a higher outputting cell (ie a 13 plate one) and just restrict the top end Amp draw with a PWM.
It will give you a lot more scope to test different litres per minute outputs.
With the 2x8 cell, all you'll get is a half litre rising to about 0.7 lpm when it's warm enough. Also, Smacks two centre plates being one positive and one negative to keep magnetic fields in alignment for improved efficiency, can be problematic, even dangerous, due to potential shorting between them, so that is why I recommended the configuration I did.
Finally, I would personally have an equalisation hole to allow filling the cell from the bottom, as it makes life a lot, lot easier than Smack's top filling mechanism. You can offset the holes if current flow is a concern, though I'm not sure whether this actually works in practice.
Hopefully this all makes some sense to you. Good luck.

[biggy boy]

Smack's two centre plates being one positive and one negative to keep magnetic fields in alignment for improved efficiency, can be problematic, even dangerous, due to potential shorting between them, so that is why I recommended the configuration I did.

It looks like the smack man has stopped doing the two plate in the center thing because of the issue you have described. He talks about it in one of his
videos.
Yes I would agree the top fill, though that fill tube does seam like a pain.
I have my 3x 6cell smack ready to assemble, but I'm worried about the filling method!?!?

[Buster]

I've got a lot of respect for Smack. He tries his best against a tide of negative people.He does get it wrong sometimes but I don't think he should be attacked for that. We need more people who are willing to have a go at things. It's easy to do nothing and criticize, like so many do.

We tried the top fill and dropped it as it is too much hassle, plus the tube can even cause shorting as it can get fouled up with sediment around the drip holes.
I'd advise the bottom fill 'equalisation hole' method. You have probably seen this type of cell as a lot of manufacturers seem to go for it. Alternating which side the bottom hole is on is thought to reduce the current taking the easy route through the holes instead of the plate, but I never got to test the theory. Has anyone else here tested it?

Conditioning/cleansing the cell is supposed to be best done with a strong Sodium Hydroxide mix. When fully cleaned and conditioned with the Sodium Hydroxide the mix can be swapped for Potassium Hydroxide, as it is not 'used up' during electrolysis, in theory at least.

When doing an HHO project for the first time, I highly recommend being ultra cautious with every step of the way. A lot can go wrong from running the cell on the bench, all the way to getting it configured in the car. It's no fun having an HHO explosion, burning your hands on electrolyte or breaking down in the middle of nowhere!!
-words spoken by a reckless man of experience!! LOL

[Helz_McFugly]

not to hijac this thread but while on the same subject I wanted to ask about a dry cell im thinking of building
+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+
fill hole on bottom, output hole on top.
and using a PWM
plates will be 7"x7" but after gaskets are installed only about 6"x6" will be production surface I think thats 1728 sq inches if you count back and front of the plates that are wet. Im not sure if you calc a 6x6 plate as having 36 si of surface or 72 if both sides are being used??? need some help on that ?
does this seem like it would be an efficient cell? or can someone with more expierence with dry cells give me a better configuration for a high output cell that can run off the output of the cars electonics.

[Buster]

I've just done two cells almost exactly like that, apart from being 6"x6" plates instead.

That configuration is probably ideal for a medium size truck. It will try to draw about 120A if you don't restrict it, which you are anyway with the PWM so long as it actually has a control for amps, not just for duty cycle like a lot seem to have.
Also, if you take the surface area actually covered with electrolyte you will probably have about 6"x6". This is 36" square per plate in a 'series', ie yours will be a 7series (-NNNNN+). The recommended minimum square inches per plate per amp is between 2 and 4 square inches per amp. So, your 36"square plate coverage area should allow you to run at between 9A and 18A per series. So the cell having 4 series will mean that it should be ran at a total of between 36A and 72A. This is what's recommended anyway.
You'll need to think about your supply as to how far you should push the amps to, but if it's just from the alternator you might find you need to keep the amps low for best MPG.
Secondary batteries would get over that though.

Have just installed oner cell in a 4000cc+ truck which is presently set up to run at 35A and it's performing well on it. I am awaiting MPG feedback but it was doing only 12MPEuropeanGallon before fitting. We'll be adjusting the amps in the normal way to see if we can get more MPG out of it. I'll post the results when I get them in, though they won't be at all scientific as the driver is presently enjoying the added performance he's getting.

[Helz_McFugly]

thank you for the input. what would be a ballpark figure for you to build me the cell Im thinking of if you were to use 6"x6" rather then 7x7. that just seems like alot of amps. maybe cutting it down to 6x6 leaving 5x5 being wet?

I have a 3.5 liter V6 engine and Ide like to get 3.5LPM of HHO yet have the capability to get 6 or 7ish should i want to amp it up.

[biggy boy]

Humm, maybe I will abandon the top fill and drill holes in the plates at the bottom.
Man the little holes staggered at the bottom of the cell, can't cut down the efficiency that much can it?

Thanks very much for your input buster!

OH ya my plates are 8 inch x 10 inch with a 5/8Th's wide gasket.

+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-

The PWM I'm making has three power mosfets one for each cell.
I'm using Zero Fossil Fuel's schematic from his site.

Glen

[Trike]

Thank you Buster for all the great informative posts, it really is helping me out and solidifying a lot of un-answered details I had. As for offsetting the ports, do you mean just having a port on top and bottom? For example, should they look like the ones I have linked below?

Thanks cabrera, for the KOH source!

Now for sourcing the plates, I don't know of any good places to look besides ebay.

I was looking at these 16g 316L plates.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=300333490210

As for gaskets, I'm tempted to cut my own, but I did notice these.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=260469089956

he mentions that he could custom cut them, so the extra notch wouldn't be there.

Anyone has recommendations for any good cheap reliable sources on plates/gaskets?

I chipped my ECU last night and got datalogging working. One step further. I wanted to chip it right away so I could start putting Unleaded into the tank. Currently if I run 87 Octane, it'll start pinging under load (up hills). I have to run at least 89 to get rid of it. I'll retard the timing and give unleaded a go again.

Thanks!

[Buster]

Heltz, the 6"x6" plates we use make this size cell good for up to around 50A, or about 3.5litres HHO per minute, calmly, which is OK if you're going solely off the vehicles electrics, but you may want more potential if you decide that backup battery power is a good way to go with it. But even then, one kit for the vehicles electrics and a totally separate independently run one would still probably be the way to go. So, stopping myself from waffling, the 7x7 cell is a little overkill for running off the vehicles electrics alone, whereas 6x6 would bring it more in line with how much power your car has to spare from a MPG efficiency point of view.

Now, I expect that US prices are lower than UK (I think the materials are cheaper there to start with) and postage from here to the US is extortionate, Plus the $ is getting hammered thanks to the Illuminatti shadow government dictators there. LOL (but true!), so I doubt that I would be anywhere near what you could get this cell built for locally, so again I think we're beat on this. That said, I will send you a private message price, just for a guide really, as I don't want someone to call me on this price over here.

[Buster]

Thank you Buster for all the great informative posts, it really is helping me out and solidifying a lot of un-answered details I had. As for offsetting the ports, do you mean just having a port on top and bottom? For example, should they look like the ones I have linked below?

Thanks cabrera, for the KOH source!

Now for sourcing the plates, I don't know of any good places to look besides ebay.

I was looking at these 16g 316L plates.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=300333490210

As for gaskets, I'm tempted to cut my own, but I did notice these.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=260469089956

he mentions that he could custom cut them, so the extra notch wouldn't be there.

Anyone has recommendations for any good cheap reliable sources on plates/gaskets?

I chipped my ECU last night and got datalogging working. One step further. I wanted to chip it right away so I could start putting Unleaded into the tank. Currently if I run 87 Octane, it'll start pinging under load (up hills). I have to run at least 89 to get rid of it. I'll retard the timing and give unleaded a go again.

Thanks!

Yes, the top and bottom holes like that will be fine. The lower fill holes aren't offset but, as I said, I haven't yet seen a test that shows whether that actually stops the current loss anyway. You are only talking a maximum of 0.5MMW efficiency decrease by all accounts, so I wouldn't worry too much anyway. If you get to build it I might tell you a secret way to stop current leakage which we have developed. I was going to inform the Smack about this as he's messing about with awkward solutions to this problem, as well as many other developers I know.....anyway, I digress.....
The ready made gaskets look pretty good, though I wouldn't be certain of his claims unless he gave an exact material content, but most likely they are better than the PVC ones people normally cut themselves, due to their lack of heat resistance. Not that you should run your cell at high temperatures really anyway, but it's handy to know it can handle whatever is thrown at it.