What is the most EFFICENT use of 12 Volts, in plate design?

[slimk]

I've read on here that 1.23 v is the max efficiency per plate [or is it per set of plates, one + and one -?] to create hho, and that giving a plate more then that will result in more more hho production but rather just useless heat.

If this is so, which seems to make sense...then what is the ideal number of plates, size of plates, way to wire them up together to FULLY and perfectly use 12 volts? is it as simple as dividing 12 by 1.23 which = 9.75? is using 10 plates the best way to not have excess heat and to get max production? if so do the plates need to be set up in a certain way? I'm interested in the math of all this, as it seems there should be a perfect fit per set voltage.

Also wondering how neutral plates fit into all this, how much v they use up?
Does this spliting up of v per plates only work if you have then in series or parallel or in different containers or all in one? what are the requirements or how can you figure out the best design?

If 10 is a good number of plates then i was thinking of doing this all in ONE 7.4 qt container -> [ +-+-+ / -+-+- ]

would that be well used and produce the most hho i can in one container? i would attach these with bolts, the / would mean those two groups are totally seperate and use their own set of bolts and are only joined by the water they are in, they would be hard wired as if they are in two seperate containers.

good idea? bad idea? help me and im sure many others understand this voltage thing!

[HYDROTEKPRO]

If it were that easy, these units would be for sale in every auto parts store already; and you could get refill bottles of electrolyte at 7-11.

There is alot of information out there on this technology, unfortunately there is also alot of MISinformation out there as well.

There are other variables that have to be correctly factored in, and these can vary depending on the values of some of the other variables. Area, spacing, electrolyte concentration, number of cells, current control (or not), voltage control (or not), etc.

We have found the safest bet is to do a shitload of tests. Then do another shitload of tests. Rinse and repeat, and go through this a few times. Then you personally know a shitload about this technology, if you do your tests right that is.

Then you can waste all kinds of time here with the rest of us!!

[Stratous]

The best use w/o being able to step voltage down would be to create 6 cells with no "N" plates. Each cell would be seperate and wired in series. That would give you 2 volts across each cell and only ~.7 volts wasted as heat. Thats my opinion.

[slimk]

thanks for the input, i knew it wasnt that simple, but i was wondering where this 1.23 v comes from, what baseline is being used to arrive at that figure or is it untrue in all cases? if not all cases WHICH cases is it true IN?

stratous: in your example, then each cell has 2 v, makes sense, but is it possible to have different cells or groupings with their own wiring and connected to the battery in series, BUT all sharing the same BIG body of electrolyte/water? if this is possible, would it better or worse then having them all in seperate containers? im guessing there would be more heat and/or production with them all in one big container because they'd all be connected via the electrolyte and feeding off of each other, even though they would be fairly far apart. would the extra heat from this big stew of sorts justify the extra production?

stratous: are you suggesting this is the BEST [if there is space in the car, money for it, etc] configuration for MAX long term production of HHO? from this type of setup what sort of lpm would i be looking at? also, would the production be higher if i used 6 big containers with big plates, then if i used 6 small containers with small plates? im guessing the bigger the better but then the more amps?

would it be ideal to get 6 as-big-as-possible containers with equally as-big-as-possible plates that come as CLOSE to using 30 amps [or similar safe limit] at max production, for using in a car to get the most HHO gas made?

thanks for help with this...and i may have to rethink my design...

[Stratous]

thanks for the input, i knew it wasnt that simple, but i was wondering where this 1.23 v comes from, what baseline is being used to arrive at that figure or is it untrue in all cases? if not all cases WHICH cases is it true IN?

stratous: in your example, then each cell has 2 v, makes sense, but is it possible to have different cells or groupings with their own wiring and connected to the battery in series, BUT all sharing the same BIG body of electrolyte/water? if this is possible, would it better or worse then having them all in seperate containers? im guessing there would be more heat and/or production with them all in one big container because they'd all be connected via the electrolyte and feeding off of each other, even though they would be fairly far apart. would the extra heat from this big stew of sorts justify the extra production?

stratous: are you suggesting this is the BEST [if there is space in the car, money for it, etc] configuration for MAX long term production of HHO? from this type of setup what sort of lpm would i be looking at? also, would the production be higher if i used 6 big containers with big plates, then if i used 6 small containers with small plates? im guessing the bigger the better but then the more amps?

would it be ideal to get 6 as-big-as-possible containers with equally as-big-as-possible plates that come as CLOSE to using 30 amps [or similar safe limit] at max production, for using in a car to get the most HHO gas made?

thanks for help with this...and i may have to rethink my design...

Answers

1. 1.23 volts is the minimum required energy to disassociate water molecules, scientifically proven many times
2. You can build 6 cells in a single bath, but you should place a nonconductive spacer between each cell. This will keep them from leaking current. You want the units isolated from each other as much as possible.
Personally that is the way I plan to build my next unit. A large container with seperate cells inside.
3. Large plates will have the capability of producing more than small plates, but will be far more expensive to build. Also, define small. My idea of small plates is about 3"x6".
4. for a vehicle 1 battery sized unit with 6 seperate cells inside should suffice for suplimentation. I wish I had a few hundred buck to blow so I could build one now.

[BoyntonStu]

The best use w/o being able to step voltage down would be to create 6 cells with no "N" plates. Each cell would be seperate and wired in series. That would give you 2 volts across each cell and only ~.7 volts wasted as heat. Thats my opinion.

Do you mean 6 cannisters?

You can use a single cannister with 6 "U" plates. (unconnected)

There will be 7 voltage steps of 2 volts each.

Why use separate cells?

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

thanks for the input, i knew it wasnt that simple, but i was wondering where this 1.23 v comes from, what baseline is being used to arrive at that figure or is it untrue in all cases? if not all cases WHICH cases is it true IN?

stratous: in your example, then each cell has 2 v, makes sense, but is it possible to have different cells or groupings with their own wiring and connected to the battery in series, BUT all sharing the same BIG body of electrolyte/water? if this is possible, would it better or worse then having them all in seperate containers? im guessing there would be more heat and/or production with them all in one big container because they'd all be connected via the electrolyte and feeding off of each other, even though they would be fairly far apart. would the extra heat from this big stew of sorts justify the extra production?

Wiki "water electrolysis"

Thus, the standard potential of the water electrolysis cell is 1.23 V at 25 °C.

The positive voltage indicates the Gibbs Free Energy for electrolysis of water is greater than zero for these reactions. This can be found using the Nernst Equation at equilibrium. The reaction cannot occur without adding necessary energy, usually supplied by an external electrical power source but also possible with thermal energy.


BoyntonStu

[Stratous]

Do you mean 6 cannisters?

You can use a single cannister with 6 "U" plates. (unconnected)

There will be 7 voltage steps of 2 volts each.

Why use separate cells?

BoyntonStu

The U plates are basically resistors. Resistors have a by product of heat generation. You can use the design you described, but more heat generation is a by product meaning it is less efficient.

[BoyntonStu]

The U plates are basically resistors. Resistors have a by product of heat generation. You can use the design you described, but more heat generation is a by product meaning it is less efficient.

What, pray tell, is the difference in heat generation between a single cell with 6 U plates and 6 separate series connected cells?

Please expand on your theory.

BoyntonStu

[slimk]

"2. You can build 6 cells in a single bath, but you should place a nonconductive spacer between each cell. This will keep them from leaking current. You want the units isolated from each other as much as possible."

Q: In this scheme would only the water be contained seperately and a free flow of gases above the cell's be desired? would this kinda thing work?

it has seperate areas but then there is about a 2-4mm gap at the top so there is a little free flow of air between the areas, but as a container it is all sealed from outside air...

this seems like an interesting design, but what are its advantages? and what happens when you go over a big bump and the water splashes all around and all the areas mix leaving some areas with more water and others with less?