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  1. Default series or parallel

    I am rather a Newbie at HHO.
    I bought of stack of ten 316 plates off ebay and started to tinker around with them.

    I can connect them in parallel with 12 volt across each plate or in series with only 2 volts across each plate. (I leave out some of the plates for the series experiment.) I immerse the plates in a beaker of distilled water with some baking soda stirred in.

    I have not measured the flow rate of gas output or current draw for the two different configurations. In theory, breakdown voltage of water is about 2 volts so one would think that once you get to the breakdown voltage, anything beyond that would go to waste.

    However, when I try the two configurations, I get a vigorous froth from the 12 volt but an anemic fizz from the 2 volt. Apparently, the 2 volt stack has a much higher electrical resistance. I have a digital multimeter but I did not think of using it to measure electrical resistance of different plate stack configurations.

    Is there data of the electric resistance and conversion efficiency of sample stacks as a function of temperature, electrolyte concentration, plate configuration, etc?

  2. Default series or paralell

    I thinking, is there is general information on how to optimize the cell to get maximum gas output and conversion efficiency without having the cell overheat?

  3. Default

    [QUOTE From = IM2L844]
    +|+ = anode (monopolar plate)
    -|+ = neutral plate (bipolar plate)
    -|- = cathode (monopolar plate)


    Once the amperage enters a series-coupled cell stack at the anode, it has nowhere else to go and must pass through every cell in the series until it leaves through the cathode. For 10 amps entering and passing through series-coupled cell stacks, with 1 to 7 cells, they would each work something like this:

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|- = 114 milliliters

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|- = 228 milliliters

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|+(cell 3)-|- = 342 milliliters

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|+(cell 3)-|+(cell 4)-|- = 456 milliliters

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|+(cell 3)-|+(cell 4)-|+(cell 5)-|- = 570 milliliters

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|+(cell 3)-|+(cell 4)-|+(cell 5)-|+(cell 6)-|- = 684 milliliters

    10 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|+(cell 3)-|+(cell 4)-|+(cell 5)-|+(cell 6)-|+(cell 7)-|- = 798 milliliters

    The voltage gets divided. Every additional cell acts like a resistor, connected in series, in an electrical circuit and reduces the voltage by dividing it equally among all the cells in the series. As the voltage per cell gets lower, it becomes more difficult for the current to overcome the resistance and, unless you do something to reduce the resistance such as increasing the electrolyte concentration, the series coupled cells will draw fewer and fewer amps. Starting with a 13.8 volt source, in series-coupled cell stacks, with 1 to 7 cells, they would each look something like this:

    +|+(13.8 volts)-|-

    +|+(6.9 volts)-|+(6.9 volts)-|-

    +|+(4.6 volts)-|+(4.6 volts)-|+(4.6 volts)-|-

    +|+(3.45 volts)-|+(3.45 volts)-|+(3.45 volts)-|+(3.45 volts)-|-

    +|+(2.76 volts)-|+(2.76 volts)-|+(2.76 volts)-|+(2.76 volts)-|+(2.76 volts)-|-

    +|+(2.3 volts)-|+(2.3 volts)-|+(2.3 volts)-|+(2.3 volts)-|+(2.3 volts)-|+(2.3 volts)-|-

    +|+(1.97 volts)-|+(1.97 volts)-|+(1.97 volts)-|+(1.97 volts)-|+(1.97 volts)-|+(1.97 volts)-|+(1.97 volts)-|-

    Production is directly proportional to amp draw. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, as far as efficiency is concerned, if you have your series coupled cell stacks all in a single electrolyzer or if they are built to use seperately. The only advantage to having them all in the same unit is it saves on space and materials because they can share common electrodes, electrolyte and so on. Even though it takes more space, materials and can be a little more complicated to install there are distinct advantages to having them all as seperate units connected in parallel if you have the space. They are less likely to leak and if one does spring a leak or has some other problem, you can just bypass that unit while you remove and repair it without have to shut down your whole system.

    If you determine your set up can handle 100 amps, you could adjust your electrolye levels so that particular number of series coupled cells draws 10 amps each, then, for example, just add 10 of those stacks so your system draws 100 amps

    (10 x 1 cell ) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 1140 milliliters for 1380 Watts (0.83 MMW)
    (10 x 2 cells) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 2280 milliliters for 1380 Watts (1.65 MMW)
    (10 x 3 cells) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 3420 milliliters for 1380 Watts (2.48 MMW)
    (10 x 4 cells) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 4560 milliliters for 1380 Watts (3.31 MMW)
    (10 x 5 cells) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 5700 milliliters for 1380 Watts (4.13 MMW)
    (10 x 6 cells) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 6840 milliliters for 1380 Watts (4.96 MMW)
    (10 x 7 cells) 100 amps x 13.8 volts = 7980 milliliters for 1380 Watts (5.79 MMW)

    From this, you can see that while your production goes up with the addition of every cell in a series, your energy cost remains the same, so your Current Efficiency and MMW efficiency subsequently increase. Adding more series coupled cell stacks to a single electrolyzer will not improve efficiency at all. Your MMW will stay exactly the same.

    For 7 cells in each series coupled stack, you could have one unit like this:
    -NNNNNN+NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-

    Trying to build and operate something like that could be problematic.

    Or you could have 10 seperate units like this:
    -NNNNNN+

    As far as energy efficiency, it wouldn't make any difference.
    The way I see it, if you're gonna build a time machine into a car, why not do it with some style?
    www.hhounderground.com

  4. Default series parallel

    The plates I have are 6 in. long and 2 in. wide. I could wire so that I have 2 charge plates on the ends and two 5 neutral plates between them. The guy who sent me the plates used a pair of nylon bolts to clamp them together and nylon washers to separate them. There is only about 2 or 3 mm separation between each plate and the spacing is not particularly even. I don't quite understand your volume measurements such as 798 ml for example. Is that gas volume output per minute?

    Is it common for stacks to draw100 amps continuous? I don't think the cell that I have could draw 100 amps without overheating big time.
    Last edited by tungs10; 09-24-2009 at 08:47 PM. Reason: revision

  5. Default

    well when I had a bath cell like yours I also used the nylon bolts and I used silcon washers and it made about 1.5mm to 2mm gaps (cells). I use KOH and my plates where set up like this +nnn-nnn+. my plates where 6"x2.5" and is used about 1.5 liters of electrolyte fluid. I had no PWM so I have to adjust amps with my electrolyte mixture. I mixed 2 tea spoons of KOH in the 1.5 liters of distilled water and it was drawing about 5 to 6 amps and making 1.5 LPM of HHO. If I was to add more KOH it would make more HHO but it would boil, so it wasnt all HHO, alot of steam. you dont want that.

    I don't quite understand your reference 798 ml for example.
    thats the output of HHO that configuration running on 10 amps and 13.8 volts will make. I think its based on a 6"x"6 dry cell configuration. you would have to control your amps with a PWM. IF you dont use a PWM youll have to control your amps with your electrolyte mixture. youll just have to put your cell in the water and add your electrolyte a little at a time while monitoring the amps and temp. but do it slowly. as the cell heats up it will draw more and more amps so add a little and let it run for a about 10 minutes, test amps and temp. you dont want it to get hot enough to create enough steam that you cant get out with a bubbler or two. mine ran at about 120 F. you can run it at a higher temp but youll need to get that steam out so no electrolytes get into your engine. Hope that helps
    The way I see it, if you're gonna build a time machine into a car, why not do it with some style?
    www.hhounderground.com

  6. Default

    so when you say "+NNN-NNN+", that means 9 plates, altogether, the end plates are positive and the middle plate is negative and the rest are neutral? When it was drawing 5 to 6 amps, was that from a car battery or alternator running at 13.8 volts, or some other kind of power source?

    What is meant by a "dry cell"?
    Last edited by tungs10; 09-24-2009 at 09:30 PM. Reason: additional question

  7. Default

    exactly.

    yes it was in my car so it 13.8 volts @ 5 to 6 amps

    a drycell is a tem used to describe an electrolizer thats electrolytes are contained between then plates so there is no currect loss from the edges of the plates.


    a wet or bath cell is what you are using and what i use to use. the plates are submurced into an electrolyte solution with the edges of the plates exposed and current is lost.
    The way I see it, if you're gonna build a time machine into a car, why not do it with some style?
    www.hhounderground.com

  8. Default series or paralell

    Really great information, thanks so much!!!

  9. Default How to run brute force cells.

    If you choose to go parallel in a bath system, it's best to divide the voltage before the cell. That way you can use as much plate surface as possible. I found that using two 1 ohm 225w resistors in parallel before the cell drops the voltage to about 3 volts at the cell and locks the current at approx 20 amps. It's current that makes the gas, and the cell sees it all. The resistor network can be used as a heater for the cell if mounted correctly. My latest cell has 21 2x6 plates (+-+-+-etc) in a 4" pvc case mounted horizontally for better flow. With this basic and cheap set-up, I have NEVER had an over heating problem. Actually it's just the opposite, especially during the winter months. At three volts I can run for hours and hours and barely hit the 115Deg mark. This is a simple option over the series dry cells. It's good to have options, eh.
    Randohr
    02' Jeep; 18mpg Highway w/o HHO
    23mpg highway w/ HHO.
    Parallel plate water baths, 3vdc, 16A
    Efies(x4), MAP diode, AIT mod, WTS mod.

  10. Default

    Randohr,
    What kind of LPM are you getting with your setup?
    crb

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