Anyone want to lower their cell temperature?

[Philldpapill]

Whooooa..... 150A? Good god. That's a lot of current. I'm not sure what kind of dummy load I can use to test something that big! Hmmmm, HHO Cell perhaps? Damn, I don't have one that big. Mine only takes about 30-40A. I'll rig up something to test.

[hg2]

Phill

I never saw the feed back you mentioned only a steady amp draw no matter what stage of start up or warmed up the cell was in.That was the goal I was looking for that was total control of the high amp draw and also to keep the cell per plate voltage at 2.15 to 2.25 vdc..Even without the PWM the cell never had a heat issue(the beauty of dry cells)I don't really see where you see issues with feed back and BTW just how much do the think it affects production?

I guess what some people think that that waves square or not will dramatically affect the average cells that those of us install on our vehicles and IMO they(PWM's) play no role except to efficiently control amperage only.Sure when you get into high tech high voltage systems that rely on frequency like the ones utilizing Toroidial coils such as the ones in Boyce's experiments,that are so radical you can have the FCC breathing down your neck for interference.
Phill I guess what I'm trying to say is that just a regular constant current PWM is all that's needed to efficiently run a system large or small for installation on a vehicle.




Helz to answer your questions they're some variables that affect the answers so I'll do my best.
On initial start up the cell would put out as little as 2 1/2 LPM when the ambient air temp was low and up to almost 4LPM when the temp was higher.On average the cell would peak at around 4 to 41/2 LPM(although I have had it up over 5 LPM).The cell temp never really got over 115* F to 120*F(and probably 15* to 20* more without the PWM).Your question regarding how long the cell took to warm to peak was also affected by ambient air temp and would vary some but not greatly.And down here in Fla. the weather is like a box of chocolates you never know what the fawk you're going to get from day to day.

[hg2]

Whooooa..... 150A? Good god. That's a lot of current. I'm not sure what kind of dummy load I can use to test something that big! Hmmmm, HHO Cell perhaps? Damn, I don't have one that big. Mine only takes about 30-40A. I'll rig up something to test.

That's funny you mention that Phill,
Shane Jackson said he ruined a good screwdriver testing mine and the 2 built in mosfets held fast with no problem.Shane said that was at around 130 amps if I remember right.

[IM2L844]

when you would start it off cold at 57 to 60 amps what was your HHO output?
and after it warmed up still drawing 57 to 60 amps what was the HHO output?
How long did it take to warm up and how warm did it get at its peak with that KOH mixture?

I'm glad you brought this up, Helz. Only the apparent volume would change. The warmed up output may contain a little more water vapor, but the energy containing amount of HHO would stay exactly the same. By way of Charles's Law plus the added water vapor it would just take up more space. The energy content wouldn't change one bit.

The increase in water vapor with temperature is exponentially proportional. Beginning at about 100* F you can expect the water vapor content to increase a full percentage point with every 2 degrees F increase in temperature. For example at 100* F you can attribute about 3% of the volume to water vapor and at 120* F you can attribute about 13% of the volume to water vapor. When you start getting close to 200* F, the rate of increase starts to approach infinity and trying to determine water vapor content starts to become a superfluous endeavor.

[Helz_McFugly]

so all the jargin I see when these guys are selling their electrolyzers and they say "its at 5 amps and only puting out about X amount of HHO right now because its only been running for 2 minutes BUT it will put out Z ammount when its nice and warm and still be at 5 amps". Isnt correct. I doubt they are try to be misleading. Im sure they just dont know.
So Its just the expansion of the gas as it warms & water vapor displacement making it measure more output?

Good to know.

[IM2L844]

so all the jargin I see when these guys are selling their electrolyzers and they say "its at 5 amps and only puting out about X amount of HHO right now because its only been running for 2 minutes BUT it will put out Z ammount when its nice and warm and still be at 5 amps". Isnt correct. I doubt they are try to be misleading. Im sure they just dont know.
So Its just the expansion of the gas as it warms & water vapor displacement making it measure more output?

Good to know.

Exactly. Remember, also, water vapor takes up just as much space, proportional to it's content percentage, as does HHO.

Something else to keep in mind when considering water vapor content is that researchers at Brookhaven National Labs have determined that the temperatures inside an electrolyzer, where the gases evolve, from the innermost cell to the outermost cells, consistently run 12 degrees F hotter than the temperature readings taken with an IR thermometer anywhere on the outside of the electrolyzer.

[richard_lyew]

No, this has nothing to do with that post, Richard. Don't taint this thread with all that nonsense again...

THIS has to do with providing a smooth, LOW voltage, current to the cell. The frequency is ONLY to sustain a stable current and NOTHING to do with the actual electrolysis.

The point of this add-on, is so that the electrolyte ONLY sees the stable current. In fact, this sort of circuit is a type of LOW-pass filter, meaning only the low frequencies get through. The circuit results in less wasted heat from ohmic heating.

You can contribute, but please, Richard, don't inject any magical "not-understood" garbage. The idea behind this is a basic power system concept in E.E.

yea yea yea but you i meant the same thing, very very good thread thou.

Thanks

[richard_lyew]

Phill. are you building me a PWM? Im getting one with a "lot" of HHO suff Im buying but I really want the one you described to me earlier. just let me know what I owe ya or if you want some $ up front being that you live under the IH45 bridge and need the $.

[will build PWM for food]

one the most important thing you could buy is a AFC, you dont have to buy the NEO now, just buy a SAFC or a VAFC if you dont have enough $ right now.

[Philldpapill]

hg2, we are saying the same thing... I don't think a PWM does anything magical(even at high frequencies). All it does, is quickly turn the power on and off to the HHO cell, thereby modulating how much average current is pushed through. However, as I displayed above, the amount of HEAT that is wasted is in fact a function of the peak currents. An average PWM unit only outputs hard square waves with larger than needed peak currents. What I am proposing would smooth these peaks out to lower average values. With lower peak currents, less power will be waste by producing heat.

In effect, if your cell is getting too hot, you can use this setup to lower your power dissipation. If your cell is running just fine(not too much heat), you can use this setup to increase the maximum average current, without excessive heat production. With a normal PWM, you can't do either of those.

Remember, this setup is an "add-on" for existing PWM's. It consists of only two components, yet has the potential to decrease heat without sacrificing HHO production. Call it an "MMW booster".

The parts can be had from most electronic shops. I've found a source for high-power inductors, but you may need to wind them yourself. If not, I can do it for anyone who wants to try - at cost of course. I'm just curious how this setup would react with other people's PWM's.

[Philldpapill]

What is an AFC(and all those acronyms you listed), Richard?