Very confused about HHO

[canpower]

Hello everyone,
I'm new here, so please forgive me if I have broken any rules by posting this here!

Recently, I became aware of the possibility to create hydrogen gas via a simple process of submerging 2 stainless steel electrodes into water which contains some baking soda, and simply attaching the 12V battery of your car to these electrodes to create hydrogen gas, which is then simply fed into the air intake of the engine above the PCV valve to boost the vehicles fuel efficiency immensly, such as the one shown on this link below:

http://www.hydrogencar-directory.inf..._Car_Kits.html

I thought this was great, as I am an electronics tech, and fully aware of how to build my own projects if need be, so I decided to look further into it. (and I own a gas guzzling minivan, and am not a fan of the world situation)

This is when it became REALLY confusing!!

The more I read the MORe I became confused.

At first, it seemed that the plan was simple, you just attach the power from the batter to the electrodes in a container of water and baking soda, hook up an output tube, connect it to the engine, and voila, instant fuel savings!

When I looked further into it, I first found that there were TONS of skeptics that said you couldn't even MAKE hydrogen gas in this method, it was impossible, or we would ALL be doing it!

So, I did a simple small experiment, I made a couple coils of stainless steel wire, submerged them into a test tube, filled it with water and a bit of baking soda, then connected the power. Instantly, when I connected the 12V 10A DC power supply, I observed the tiny bubbles rising from the coils, so I thought, hey, this is promising, so I capped the test tube off with a solder sucker bulb from radio shack, sealed it with electrical tape, and awaited it to fill with the hydrogen, IF it WAS truly hydrogen.

You didn't want to see my fiencee's face (nor the cat's!) when the flame I held over the top of the bulb ignited the hydrogen inside, blowing the top off it with a LOUD POP, haha.....I was in the doghouse for awhile...lol.

Anyhow, I NOW know it's TRUE, as I've seen it for my OWN eyes that it IS possible to create hydrogen this way.

The question in my mind now is about actually powering my car with it, and how to produce it properly. MORE confusion.

Immediately, I ran into arguements that you MUST have a PWM circuit "pulsing" the current to the electrodes with a power saving duty cycle, otherwise, the power used to "generate" the hydrogen via the extra load on the alternator, and additional gasoline to do so, otherwise, your saving NOTHING at all.

So, question #1, is this TRUE? MUST one have a pulsed current limited PWM system to make this actually work properly, thus proving the systems avaliable such as in the link i posted above are all bunk?? Or can you just hook it up, with the proper amount of plates in the electrodes to ensure the proper amount of current verses hydrogen is produced?

Next, I read that since I have a Ford windstar minivan, which has oxygen sensors, I MUST build and install an EFIE device in order to "fool" the van's computer into properly mixing the air fuel mixture, as the oxygen sensor would not properly report the correct voltage back to the computer.
So, this is my next question, is THIS statement true, AGAIN proving the simple systems such as the one I display in the above link don't actuaslly work.

OK, so, supposing that I CAN produce my own hydrogen, and actually BOOST the efficiency and milage in my van's engine per tank of gas, and I DO need the PWM and EFIE circuits, then what? WHICH one of the MANY circuits do I utilize and build?

I've read in MANY places that the systems designed by Stanly Myers DON'T work, and NOBODY has EVER been able to get them to work!

More disinformation? Or true? If true, then WHICH circuits DO I build??

I have found some circuits at "Chemelec" that DO look interesting, however the "best" one on their site apparently they are not actually "giving" the schematic for that one away.

I have MANY more questions about all of this, but I'll leave it at this for now, so I don't overwhelm everyone with my questions.

Again, I hope I've posted this in the appropriate area of this forum, and not flogged a dead horse by asking the same questions you've probably heard from newbies to all this a million times, but I've gotten to the point now where I actually have WAY TOO MUCH information, and need some resolution about what info is actually valid, and worth persuing as a viable means to make this project work, I really don't have the energy or money to waste on projects that don't work, or "sorta" work, I need to focus on something that is proved worthy of building, and "actually" works!

I'm sure one of you guys out there started off down the same path as me, and wished you had someone to guide you, I've always been one to learn from other people's mistakes, I make enough of my own as it is!
Thanks,
Chris

[Helz_McFugly]

yea I think we all started where you are. Ill answer your questions in basic terms so you can get started doing more research.

question #1, is this TRUE? MUST one have a pulsed current limited PWM system to make this actually work properly, thus proving the systems avaliable such as in the link i posted above are all bunk?? Or can you just hook it up, with the proper amount of plates in the electrodes to ensure the proper amount of current verses hydrogen is produced?

yes & no. A PWM is the best way to go becaause you can mix your electrolytes to where they should be for the greatest efficiency and control current with the PWM. OR, you can control your current with the mixture of electrolytes, starting low and adding to make the water more conductive. this is the less efficient way of doing it but it does work.

Next, I read that since I have a Ford windstar minivan, which has oxygen sensors, I MUST build and install an EFIE device in order to "fool" the van's computer into properly mixing the air fuel mixture, as the oxygen sensor would not properly report the correct voltage back to the computer.
So, this is my next question, is THIS statement true, AGAIN proving the simple systems such as the one I display in the above link don't actuaslly work.

using HHO makes your 02 sensors think there is to much 02 in the exhaust causing your computer to see to lean of a burn thus adding more fuel and lowering your MPG's. So yes, you muct trick your ECM. there are many ways to do it.
And yes, that website you linked is a scam, there are lots of them. the biggest and most well known is water4gas.com and that thing you posted is the exact same thing.

OK, so, supposing that I CAN produce my own hydrogen, and actually BOOST the efficiency and milage in my van's engine per tank of gas, and I DO need the PWM and EFIE circuits, then what? WHICH one of the MANY circuits do I utilize and build?

this is why "everyone isnt doing it" its not really a user friendly type thing. you have to have an understanding of what going on and you ahve to be pretty mechanically inclined and have basic understanding for electricity. 9 out of 10 people that drive a car dont meet that criteria. Even if you had the most user friendly system installed on your car for you it still take a bit knowledge to maintain it.

More disinformation? Or true? If true, then WHICH circuits DO I build??

It works. I dont sell or promote any products and I can tell you it works.
as far as which one you should build. start out with a basic system. this is an ever growing technology, the bad part about it is there are so many people trying to debunk it and make everyone think its a scam it hard to weed through what to build, buy, or ignore. Thats what this forum is for. stick around, ask questions, follow threads just not the wrong ones.

welcome to the forum
good luck

[ridelong]

If you can build stuff from a schematic, I designed a temperature feedback PWM.

The link is http://www.mikecramer.com/images/tempheater.jpg

The parts list is on this site. It's on the thread: Temperatuer feedback pwm toward the end of the thread.

People seemed to have trouble making this circuit.

I have been running this circuit for over 1 year, and it's great.

It runs the gen full throttle until it gets to the temperature you set. Then it pulse width modulates the power to keep the gen temp constant. So you generate the highest amount of hho, and keep your gen from overheating.

Good luck

Russ

[Philldpapill]

Wow, Russ! You say this is stable? I've tried my hand at using the temperature in a feedback loop to control the current, but I always have stability problems in mine. I haven't had a chance to fully look over your circuit, but I assume this is some kind of analog PID controller? I've tried implementing it with a microcontroller, but like I said - the system is too unstable. I suppose better tuning would be needed.

I'll have to look over this. Very nice!

EDIT: What FETs are you using in that? Does the HHO gen cycle on and off? I don't see any sort of PWM control of it...

[canpower]

Thanks Helz_McFugly, ridelong & Philldpapill for your reply and information.

I am able to build circuits from a schematic only, so I'll check my supply box, and see if I have all the stuff to build that recommended circuit, and if so, give it a whirl, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure I already have all those parts required.

Other than this circuit, what PWM circuit would you recommend as a "basic" system to start off with?

I don't want to mess around trying to calculate electrolyes, I would rather just build a circuit as long as it's not too overly complicated to see how it works out.

Does someone have a suitible circuit for an EFIE that would work with my 1999 ford windstar minivan? I'm assuming a circuit like this simply goes between the O2 sensor on the manifold, (cut the return line and place the unit in between the computer and sensor) and the van's computer?

What about the actual electrodes? Should I use plates, or steel tubes? What are the recommended guidelines for how much current draw and hydrogen production I should go by? Is there a COMPLETE system encompassing everything that "most" people are using right now? (Schematics and electrode designs)

My engine light has been on for about a year now as it is, lol, I went as far as to have the computer hooked up to the van to read the code, and it showed the O2 sensor as bad, so maybe it needs replacing as it is, or maybe the EFIE circuit will actually repair the issue, reporting the correct voltage back to the computer as maybe the sensor is just getting old and sloppy, and not returning favorable data to the computer anymore, I heard that's a common issue with those sensors.

If I can obtain a bit of guidance, and a "proven working" set of schematics for both the EFIE and the PWM circuit, then I could build a working prototype, and improve on it from there onwards, but there's no sense in reinventing the wheel, and spending a year researching everything that others have already done if it can be helped, so I would REALLY appreciate it if someone could bring me up to speed, so I'm current with the current "working technology" at hand. Perhaps after I reach that point, and can do some serious research and experimentation, I'll be able to return some contributions to the group one day in the near future.

Also, one of my other questions was about the electrolyte.

Again, I was led to believe that a simple shot of baking soda in some water was good enough, until I started reading, and found out about all the complex electolytes people are using.

Will good old baking soda work just fine with a PWM system? Or do I have to use Lye or something else? Additionally, must the electrolyte be replenished, or dumped and refilled with fresh electrolye peroidically? If so, when and how?

Thanks again for your info and guidance, it is mush appreciated!

Chris

[canpower]

yea I think we all started where you are. Ill answer your questions in basic terms so you can get started doing more research.



yes & no. A PWM is the best way to go becaause you can mix your electrolytes to where they should be for the greatest efficiency and control current with the PWM. OR, you can control your current with the mixture of electrolytes, starting low and adding to make the water more conductive. this is the less efficient way of doing it but it does work.



using HHO makes your 02 sensors think there is to much 02 in the exhaust causing your computer to see to lean of a burn thus adding more fuel and lowering your MPG's. So yes, you muct trick your ECM. there are many ways to do it.
And yes, that website you linked is a scam, there are lots of them. the biggest and most well known is water4gas.com and that thing you posted is the exact same thing.



this is why "everyone isnt doing it" its not really a user friendly type thing. you have to have an understanding of what going on and you ahve to be pretty mechanically inclined and have basic understanding for electricity. 9 out of 10 people that drive a car dont meet that criteria. Even if you had the most user friendly system installed on your car for you it still take a bit knowledge to maintain it.



It works. I dont sell or promote any products and I can tell you it works.
as far as which one you should build. start out with a basic system. this is an ever growing technology, the bad part about it is there are so many people trying to debunk it and make everyone think its a scam it hard to weed through what to build, buy, or ignore. Thats what this forum is for. stick around, ask questions, follow threads just not the wrong ones.

welcome to the forum
good luck

By the way, how do I know which threads here are the WRONG ones? Shouldn't people posting crap here be kicked and banned, to preserve the integrity of building the "valid" technology up and discovering/proving what REALLY works?

I'll NEVER know what are the WRONG ones unless someone TELLS me...LOL

[Helz_McFugly]

HA. youll know the bad eggs because the people who are logical will be on them like wolves on sheep and youll see it. the Mods on this forum are eather asleep or jsut dont care becaue we can rip someone up one side and down the other and no Mods will step in. which is one reason I like this forum.

do some searches on how to install efie's, build electrolizers and PWm's. youtube has alot of good videos of systems working. thats a good place to start, jsut dont get cought in the mason jar guys. go with the dry cell system. go to youtube and type in hho dry cell. hundrds of vids. learn as many as you can and see how they work. thats a good start.

[canpower]

HA. youll know the bad eggs because the people who are logical will be on them like wolves on sheep and youll see it. the Mods on this forum are eather asleep or jsut dont care becaue we can rip someone up one side and down the other and no Mods will step in. which is one reason I like this forum.

do some searches on how to install efie's, build electrolizers and PWm's. youtube has alot of good videos of systems working. thats a good place to start, jsut dont get cought in the mason jar guys. go with the dry cell system. go to youtube and type in hho dry cell. hundrds of vids. learn as many as you can and see how they work. thats a good start.

That's the problem, I've DONE all of that, for the past week, I've been obsessed with downloading and collecting schematics, plans, and info on HHO setups and devices, and like I say, NOW I'm more confused than EVER!

I have gathered quite a few schematics for both PWM and EFIE circuits, and because of that, I'm just not sure WHICH ones are the ones to build.

I don't know "which" ones have been tried and tested, especially since some of them are the SAME schematics that one person says works great, yet another says don't build it, it doesn't work, and is simply for a starting point to develope your own design from.

In terms of designing my own circuits, I can't really do that, because even the info about what to "design" varies depending on who you talk to. I have no real idea what voltage or current should be applied to the electrolyte, or even the proper operating temperature for the electrolyte, or how many plates or cells equal how much hydrogen output, and how much hydrogen output is enough to really do anything, and also when bulding an EFIE, the exact voltages to what lines in my minivan should be present to fool the computer. I don't want to mess up my vehicle worse than it already is!

This is why I was hoping someone out there would have a "specific" schematic for each type of device I need to build, one that was tried and tested, and a specific suggestion of what the "basic" kit would be to get started.

Also, am I correct in what I assume in how the hydrogen is fed into my fuel injected ford windstar engine, just fed into a "T" connector from the PCV valve? That's what I read, will that just suck the hydrogen into the fuel injectors from that point directly into where it needs to go?

Thanks again!
Chris

[Helz_McFugly]

not sure Ide go into it near the pcv valve. the closer to the throttle body the better, and if you can get upstream of the MAF sensonr that wouldl be good as well. Im going into a vacume line and havent noticed anything different from when it was on the other side of the throttle body but its there so im leaving it.

[canpower]

not sure Ide go into it near the pcv valve. the closer to the throttle body the better, and if you can get upstream of the MAF sensonr that wouldl be good as well. Im going into a vacume line and havent noticed anything different from when it was on the other side of the throttle body but its there so im leaving it.

Thanks Helz_McFugly,
So let me ask bluntly, since nobody is actually jumping on the bandwagon and offering me schematics (except for ridelong, thanks for that by the way!), is there anyone out there who has a setup installed and working well, who will offer me the complete plans and schematics for the circuits and systems they currently have installed and successfully running?

Again, I would greatly appreciate the help, all I'm really after is a basic entry level scaleable system that I can eventually build upon (more cells, or bigger/better cells ect) that will work right away, and offer some kind of immediate noticable gas mileage improvement, is relatively simple in construction and schematic content, and is up and running currently in someone's vehicle without any issues.

I know there are many peices and chunks of info out there, I'm hoping that someone has gathered a system together, proved it working, efficient, and non-problematic, and can provide that already pieced together system of components that work well, rather than me having to start frmo scratch, and try to figure out what works and what doesn't.

That's why I'm here, to find out if someone can give me a definitive answer that there IS a working system I can easily build, and tell me specifically "what" that system is, so I can go ahead and build one!

Thanks
Chris