I'm LOST

[rcflyn]

Ok, I just spent 2 hours reading in the PWM threads, but am MORE confused than when I started. MAN I hope you guys can clear things up for me.
To start with, Here's what I've got...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

Ok, I've had a wet cell running in my garage for at LEAST 100 hours on a distilled water and KOH mixture drawing 20 amps, Runs great, produces "Fairly well" for a wet cell. Dry cell is in the making...

So, Last night, I Upped my KOH Concentration by just 2 tablespoons KOH.
I started applying power through that PWM until my "FUSE BUDDY" amp guage said I was at 20 amps again. It WAS Making Gas. But, Visually, it wasn't as Much as it was BEFORE the PWM. So my little mind gets to wandering. I hooked my DVOM up to the Cell. Im only running at 9.09 Volts. So, Now I'm REALLY Confused. I thought these PWMs are supposed to HELP??? Or is It I'm overthinking things... Is 9.09 Volts and 20 amps the same as 13.5 volts and 20 amps?
Like I said, it IS producing, but visually, it just don't seem to be the same production as without the higher concentration KOH. I didn't FLOW test either way, but man, the bubbles seemed to be MORE without the higher concentraion KOH...
BTW. The wet cell is 16 Plates. Both outside plates "-", Middle inside plates "+". The rest "n"...

I've read and Looked at a couple other PWM's, and if this isn't the way to go, I guess ZERO's, and one other (sorry, can't remember the guys name, he has the self shutting down capability) will be the next route to go. But, I, Like many others I'm sure, am kinda a tight wad, and looking for the "CHEAPEST" route out. But, I'm also not afraid to spend the money if NEEDED...
By the way, I'm mainly concidering PWM and High KOH for winter protection at the moment.

[thedore]

hho is a function of current only. more current more hho but the duty cycle may come into play.

[cabrera]

Ok, I just spent 2 hours reading in the PWM threads, but am MORE confused than when I started. MAN I hope you guys can clear things up for me.
To start with, Here's what I've got...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

Ok, I've had a wet cell running in my garage for at LEAST 100 hours on a distilled water and KOH mixture drawing 20 amps, Runs great, produces "Fairly well" for a wet cell. Dry cell is in the making...

So, Last night, I Upped my KOH Concentration by just 2 tablespoons KOH.
I started applying power through that PWM until my "FUSE BUDDY" amp guage said I was at 20 amps again. It WAS Making Gas. But, Visually, it wasn't as Much as it was BEFORE the PWM. So my little mind gets to wandering. I hooked my DVOM up to the Cell. Im only running at 9.09 Volts. So, Now I'm REALLY Confused. I thought these PWMs are supposed to HELP??? Or is It I'm overthinking things... Is 9.09 Volts and 20 amps the same as 13.5 volts and 20 amps?
Like I said, it IS producing, but visually, it just don't seem to be the same production as without the higher concentration KOH. I didn't FLOW test either way, but man, the bubbles seemed to be MORE without the higher concentraion KOH...
BTW. The wet cell is 16 Plates. Both outside plates "-", Middle inside plates "+". The rest "n"...

I've read and Looked at a couple other PWM's, and if this isn't the way to go, I guess ZERO's, and one other (sorry, can't remember the guys name, he has the self shutting down capability) will be the next route to go. But, I, Like many others I'm sure, am kinda a tight wad, and looking for the "CHEAPEST" route out. But, I'm also not afraid to spend the money if NEEDED...
By the way, I'm mainly considering PWM and High KOH for winter protection at the moment.

In the simplest terms, consider a PWM like a dimmer switch, the higher you go the brighter the light gets. If you make say a 28% KOH mix (2 lbs per 3/4 gallon) this mixture definitely won't freeze, but uncontrolled it could pull ridiculous amps that your alternator may not be able to handle. Now add a PMW and you dial in the exact amount of amperage you want to draw. As your cell heats up it will pull more amps, you can again dial it back to your desired threshold.

The more voltage you add the more your cell will produce. The PWM will not itself produce more HHO

[rcflyn]

WOW...
I posted that 4 months ago .... and am just now getting a reply? LOL...

[lhazleton]

Brian,
That's 'cuz Andy figured it would take you that long to be able to grasp it Melvin..........

[cabrera]

Brian,
That's 'cuz Andy figured it would take you that long to be able to grasp it Melvin..........

ROTFL!

Would you believe I was waiting for you to find yourself???
I didn't even notice the date, plus I can't even remember what I had for breakfast. Now that I look at it Brian, it is strange why you would ask that at this stage. Unless you had a senior moment! LOL

[rcflyn]

Brian,
That's 'cuz Andy figured it would take you that long to be able to grasp it Melvin..........

LMFAO... Good ONE....
The BAD part of it is, Even that I KNOW the answers to it now, I STILL haven't hooked the PWM up to the Van. I just said "Fudge it, I'll run without HHO in winter". I Even Moved 1 of my 2 Zero Replica PWM's to the Bench where the Cells are at in the basement, To remind myself to hook it up so I can start experimenting with it in the basement BEFORE I move the Diamond cell to the Van this spring. Do you think I've got it HOOKED up yet???? We won't go there...
And NOW, Because I'm in School, I've decided to put my Dodge Stratus back on the road, and drive my van less often, and there's NO ROOM in that engine compartment to put my Diamond Cell. So now I've gotta Look the Dodge over, Find a place to mount something, Then Build something suitable for where I find to put it.... UUUGGGHHH....
MAYBE, Just MAYBE, Then I'll start playing with the PWM.....
Ya, I Doubt it too....

Ok Lee, I'll own up to the MELVIN.... THIS TIME....

[Philldpapill]

rcflyn, I know this is old, but the reason might be pretty simple... Bad measurements, i.e. you aren't REALLY pushing 20A through your cell, but "20A RMS" - not average(which is what counts). Most meters are designed to measure RMS(Root Mean Square) values for current. I could go into the mathematical details of this, but RMS values are used with regards to power dissipation in loads, and not HHO cells. We are interested in the average current instead.

If you started without a PWM, then your current would be a straight DC value. In this case, the RMS and average current are the same(20A). However, if you add more electrolyte and a PWM, then things get tricky. Let's say you set your PWM to 50% duty cycle(on 50% of the time, 0ff 50% of the time), and you add KOH until your ammeter reads 20A(assuming RMS value). If this is the case, your AVERAGE current isn't 20%... It's actually comparable to running straight DC through your cell at about 14.14A. That's about 71% of the "meter value". This would of course create less gas...

This is the main problem with PWM's and getting a reliable current measurement. In addition to the RMS problems, some meters don't sample the current measurement fast enough. In some cases if your PWM frequency is pretty high, and your meter sampling rate is lower than twice the PWM frequency, you can get aliasing problems. This is usually most notable when the meter value keeps bouncing around, or sometimes just plain wrong.

NOTE: Aliasing is where your meter takes samples of the current signal, but sometimes most of the samples are taken while the PWM is ON, while other times most of the signals are taken when the PWM is in the OFF state. If you take all your samples when the PWM is off, then your meter would think there is NO current flowing... clearly wrong. On the other hand, it might take samples when the PWM current is ON, and it reads just the peak DC values.

The HHO community really should devise a current measuring standard... So many people make claims of OU, but they don't realize that the reason their cell works "so well" is that their measurements are skewed to begin with.

[H2OPWR]

Ok, I just spent 2 hours reading in the PWM threads, but am MORE confused than when I started. MAN I hope you guys can clear things up for me.
To start with, Here's what I've got...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWNX%3AIT

Ok, I've had a wet cell running in my garage for at LEAST 100 hours on a distilled water and KOH mixture drawing 20 amps, Runs great, produces "Fairly well" for a wet cell. Dry cell is in the making...

So, Last night, I Upped my KOH Concentration by just 2 tablespoons KOH.
I started applying power through that PWM until my "FUSE BUDDY" amp guage said I was at 20 amps again. It WAS Making Gas. But, Visually, it wasn't as Much as it was BEFORE the PWM. So my little mind gets to wandering. I hooked my DVOM up to the Cell. Im only running at 9.09 Volts. So, Now I'm REALLY Confused. I thought these PWMs are supposed to HELP??? Or is It I'm overthinking things... Is 9.09 Volts and 20 amps the same as 13.5 volts and 20 amps?
Like I said, it IS producing, but visually, it just don't seem to be the same production as without the higher concentration KOH. I didn't FLOW test either way, but man, the bubbles seemed to be MORE without the higher concentraion KOH...
BTW. The wet cell is 16 Plates. Both outside plates "-", Middle inside plates "+". The rest "n"...

I've read and Looked at a couple other PWM's, and if this isn't the way to go, I guess ZERO's, and one other (sorry, can't remember the guys name, he has the self shutting down capability) will be the next route to go. But, I, Like many others I'm sure, am kinda a tight wad, and looking for the "CHEAPEST" route out. But, I'm also not afraid to spend the money if NEEDED...
By the way, I'm mainly concidering PWM and High KOH for winter protection at the moment.

One more thing to consider. You simply can not measure voltage at the cell while running a PWM. A DC voltmeter will not accurately measure pulsing DC. It does not know what to think. Always measure the voltage before the PWM and not after it. Then the voltage will be accurate.

Larry

[Philldpapill]

Larry is absolutely right, and for the same reason as the current measurements. It's like blinking really fast while a strobe light is going. Sometimes you might open them when the strobe is on, and sometimes when it is off. And sometimes you'll open your eyes 90% of the time when the strobe is off... Logically, you can only assume that the strobe is off for 90% of the time, but that might not be the case... The volt/current meters work the same way.