What am I doing wrong?

[350matt]

Hello All

I'm hoping someone with more knowledge than I can help me out a bit here

I've fitted a 21 plate cell with a supposed ouptut of 2.5 -3ltrs/min of gas to my 3ltr petrol Lexus Gs300, I've also fitted an EFIE deivce which adds an offset to the oxygen sensor signal into the ECU .

I'm using an PWM power supply to pulse the power as this too is supposed to increase cell efficiency, for the electrolyte I'm using a Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) with filtered water
I'm been using it for the last 3 weeks or so and I do a lot of miles ( about 140 a day) and so far its not showing much benefit, however I haven't given up and will continue to tinker with it as the mpg is about the same so its not hurting anything.

I should point out I did have a mishap when installing it and that was when I drilled through the intake pipe to add the gas fiting to the engine a small piece of plastic found its way back down to the MAF meter and ended up sat on the terminals and this may have caused some damage so I need to try running without the gas for a tankfull or so to see if the mpg takes a sudden dive.

I record the mpg using the tank to tank method so it should be pretty accurate and I've got records to about 3months before I fitted the device so I think I can trust my data as its the same route , same time and same journey time each day.

I've just purchased a small gas flow meter to see if I can quantify what the cell is making so try and optimise it as I suspect my 3ltr 210bhp engine needs a bigger cell / more gas to be of benefit.

Your thoughts gentlemen please

[Helz_McFugly]

you shouldnt need more gas. as far ar WHERE you have the gas ported in is important. if that gas id flowing over the MAF, thats not good. also some cars hav a harder time getting gains from HHO. Ive found the higher your compression ratio is in your cumbustion chamber, the more gains youll see. Im not sure about a lexus. The closer to 10 the better.
anu idea how many amps youre pulling? If I knew Plate Size, whats getting wet, not the entire plate, I could tell you what your volts, amps, and LPM should be.
How the plates are configured is also critical.
I just cant see how a 21 plate would work unless thre are deviders
+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn- that would be a good 19 plate config, the next best thing would be 1 more N in each stack which would be 22 plates. how is yours setup? the only 21 plate config I can think that would be efficient would have 4 end plates in it like this (I= insulator plate/end plate)
I+nnnnn-I-nnnnn+I+nnnnn-I

[350matt]

Thanks for the reply

The gas is ported into the inlet tube just before the throttle butterfly and post MAF, I'm considering moving it to the vacuum side (post butterfly) as I was thinking it should draw through better.

The engine is pretty modern and about 10.5:1 CR

Its set-up to pull 18-20Amps and the configuration is:

+ve NNNN -ve NNNN +ve NNNN -ve NNNN +ve with a big chunk of perspex on either end to clamp it all together / insulate it, each plate is separated from its neighbour with a 0.8-1mm thick rubber gasket.

The plates are 75mm x 165mm with an 8mm hole at the top and bottom of each plate to allow throughflow.
When the system is off the entire plate is wet but when its running the wet line is approx 2/3rds up the height of the plate, so wetted up up to 110-120 mm before the foam / gas line starts

You can see gas bubbling out at a reasonable rate and its then run via the header / bubbler tank and the gas piped off the headspace of this tank to the engine. the bottom of the tank is then piped back to the plate stack.

According to the installation info I was given the unit should run reasonably warm ( about 50-60°C) but I'm unsure if this is the electrolyte temperature or the stack temp as currently its only reaching 28°C when measured on the stack.

I've also tried an anti-foam additive to try and help things.

Currently I'm doubting if the technology does actually work

[Helz_McFugly]

you shouldnt doubt the technoligy, it works, you just have to do it right, and ther are so many companies out there selling stuff that flat out doesnt work. your electrolyzer is configured inefficiently, I think they do this so it looks like youre getting alot of HHO when you really are not. it should run at a temp of around 50C.when I said the plate size that gets wet, i meant whats not covered by a gasket, but that ok, I was unclear in my statment. so its 3"x6.5" . thats a surface area of 15 sq in. you can have .05 amps for every sq in of surface area in each stack. and being that you have 4 stack thats means you could run up to 30 amps max, the only problem is you dont have enough N plates. you need 4 more N plates, 1 in each stack. each cell should have no more then 2 volts and no less then 1.97 volts, and you only have 4 cells in each stack so your puting 2.76VDC in each cell and thats a waist and is creating heat and is running inefficient.

FIX # 1. if you think you can do this: you should take it apart and reconfigure your cell. so if you have 21 plates and you want to make it efficient you should configure it like this.
+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-. youll have 2 plates left over. This way you are only puting a little over 2vdc through each cell and it should run 13.8vdc/22.5amps and get 1.28 LPM of HHO, not steam and expanded gas as youre getting now.

FIX #2. The only other fix would be to order 4 more N plates and put one in each stack like this +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+. 13.8vdc/30amps and you would get 1.71 LPM of HHO

Even the way your cell is configured, if it puting out 2.5 to 3LPM, way more then half is steam and expanded gas. a cell with that little of surface area cant produce that much HHO unless you had 36 plates. that would be 7 stacks of 6 cells at 13.8vdc/52.5amps, then you would get 3LPM of HHO. it would look like this +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-.
I hope this info helps and gives you a better understanding of how the electrolyzer works, and good luck with it.

[350matt]

Thanks for getting back to me, I'll push on with it and try out your suggestions

[350matt]

Something else worth mentioning is the info that came with the cell says that the KOH concentration shoudl be about 1 teaspoon per litre.

I see elsewhere on this forum the figure of 28% keeps cropping up rather than the 2-3% I'm running.

I'm pulling 18-20 amp by virtue of running the PWM nearly flat out, I suppose I should add a lot more KOH and modulate the amps with the PWM ?

[H2OPWR]

Something else worth mentioning is the info that came with the cell says that the KOH concentration shoudl be about 1 teaspoon per litre.

I see elsewhere on this forum the figure of 28% keeps cropping up rather than the 2-3% I'm running.

I'm pulling 18-20 amp by virtue of running the PWM nearly flat out, I suppose I should add a lot more KOH and modulate the amps with the PWM ?

Yoy need to look at your entire cell just like you would an electrical wire. The more conductive the wire the better it will perform. The larger the wire the better it will perform. Get that cell more conductive and eliminate all the resistance you can. KOH concentration is a hotly contested subject in the small community of HHO folks. My opinion is first as Helz said. Add 1 more neutral plate. Second get that KOH concentration between 28 and 33% by weight. All you are doing is making the water more conductive and losing less current to resistance. Those who chose to control their cells amp draw by lowering theit KOH concentration are simply making their devices less conductive controlling their amps that way. Third if your cell is filling even a little with foam you are overamping it. That probably means your cell has even less water in it than you think. The foam on top of your water still conducts electricity but is VERY inefficient. All the current going through your foam will be lost energy. I would guess that you are not putting out anywhere the amount of actual HHO gas as the cell manufacturer claims. Most of your current is probably wasted in the cell. Solve those problems and I am sure you will get some gains

[350matt]

Thanks for the advice guys, I've just been playing with the concentration of KOH whilst making measurements with my new flow meter ( an Argon gas item from a TIG welding set-up, argon is about 15% heavier than HHO so it should under read by the same - close enough for farm work as they say)

and with set-up as it was I was getting something almost unmeasurable on the meter (0-14ltrs/min scale) say about 0.25 ltrs/min if I'm lucky, by adding more KOH its now pushing out 1.5-1.75 ltrs/min of gas at 20amps.
also the level of foam has reduced considerably

I'm also picking up a battery electrolyte density meter to measure what concentration of KOH I've actually running.

Hopefully the rest of the fuel tank will go a little further.

And I plan to add the extra plates as per Helz's advice at the w'end to furhter increase the efficency

Cheers

[Helz_McFugly]

to get your KOH where it should be (28%) it takes 2lbs for every gallon of water. be sure and mix it slow because it gets hot.

And I plan to add the extra plates as per Helz's advice at the w'end to furhter increase the efficency

I dont quite unstand what you mean by w'end
are you going to buy 4 new plates or reconfigure it with the plates you have?
If it were me, Ide go ahead and rip it apart and make it +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn- then order 4 more N plates and add them in when you get them so you have a 4 stack reactor again. get your hands dirty

[Atechguy]

HELZ : w'end =WEEKEND