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Thread: Dry Cell, Shim Cell... Isolation Cell?

  1. #1

    Default Dry Cell, Shim Cell... Isolation Cell?

    Oh well,
    That's what I'm going to call it anyway. It sounds like something from the medical wing of a prison, but the idea is to isolate the two gasses from one another yet try to keep the efficiency as high as possible from the stand point of plate spacing. Before it hits the fan, let me say that this particular unit is NOT for a vehicle, but for making clean storable H2 for the farmstead and intended to be powered by a dedicated array of solar panels.
    With the accidental discovery by H2OPWR of the insulative properties and durability of Weldon-16, the final hurdle for the "Isolation Cell" has been overcome. The gasket shape does the bulk of the work, but problem had been the plate thickness that was exposed to electrolyte at the inlet and outlet holes.
    When I read a post this morning about a "no hole dry cell" I started wondering exactly how that was meant, then I saw the "Shim Cell" and realized that roughly the same thing was trying to be accomplished through a similar architecture though there was no attempt to separate the gasses.
    I attached a .jpg of my design for evaluation. Constructive criticism only please... -Gus
    Attached Images

  2. Default Why no responses?

    I see how you are trying to seperate the gasses but, You are trying to store the H2????

    Can't you just make one cell ( +nnnnn..Et Cetra? and the other -nnnnnn..Et Cetra?

  3. #3

    Default

    Gus,

    My only comment is to ditch the bayanet/spade connectors! I know how nice and easy they are, but I've had NOTHING but bad luck with them. After time, they loosen then start getting hot. Eventually they melt away. And it doesn't take that much current, either. The last "commercial" cell I got was a 19 plate, 3 stack cell with spade connectors. I was running it at only 20 amps. And remember, as a 3 stack cell, the power lead to the cell is split into 4 wires (2 positive and 2 negative) so that really only 5 amps average per connecter. One connector failed at about 150 hours. I replaced the conncetors, used some copper grease and returned to service. At 434 hours it failed again. I removed the cell and replaced it with a larger 13 plate cell that used 1/4" ring connectors to attach the leads.

    PS -- the connectors I use are good ones -- the higher grade heat shrink ones that McMaster-Carr cells.
    Last edited by astrocady; 07-06-2010 at 02:02 PM. Reason: addition
    1991 Plymouth Acclaim 3L V6.
    1 dry cells with nineteen 6"x8" 316L ss plates, driven by constant current PWM set at 35 amps (13.3V at PWM). 28% KOH electrolyte. Total measured output 2.5 lpm. Mileage went from 18 to 26 mpg, all city driving (44% increase). EFIE set at .370 and I still need to play with ignition timing.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CNC MASTER View Post
    I see how you are trying to seperate the gasses but, You are trying to store the H2????

    Can't you just make one cell ( +nnnnn..Et Cetra? and the other -nnnnnn..Et Cetra?
    CNC MASTER- Storage, yes, hydrogen only- no oxygen, perfectly safe... Think about your second question for a moment... Those neutral plates are making HHO, not just H or just O, so no, I couldn't make it work that way. Besides, this electrolyzer design is very much like a typical dry cell design, with just an extra gasket and two gas seperator membranes between each plate- this allows the plate spacing to still be in the "normal" range and keep the efficiency high.

  5. #5

    Default Spade connectors...

    Steve,
    You're gonna freak when I tell you this, but I accidentally found a way to make them work much better. The problem was plate spacing (gasket thickness) and the fact that I went with no neutral plates this first go 'round. Plate thickness is .05", gaskets are .04", and the out to out on those bayonet receivers is about .055 or .056". You can see my dilemma... So I thought, "Hhmmm, I can gain a few thousandths if I put these things in the vise while on a plates tab." So I tried it, it worked perfectly, it also gave me about twice the contact area per connector due to the fact that the little spring curl on the backside of them was now flattened and more than just the edge (material) thickness was in contact with the back side of the tab now. Oh, and I also use use a dab of NOALOX in every single connector (female/receiver). That stuff is amazing, I use it on ALL of the electrical connections on my truck that I have ever had apart for maintenance or upgrades, it actually got me back a solid two volts of charging capacity through decreased resistance. BUT- let me say this, since I learned about copper plating stainless over in Nick's Realm, from now on the tabs get plated then the conductors get soldered directly to them... All is fair in the battle against resistance!

  6. Default

    Gus, I can understand you wanting to store the H and thus the necessity to separate the O from the H and your design is excellent. My question is has anybody tested the efficiency of a zero current leakage reactor system to prove that the extra work (expense) is really worth it, compared to just insulating the holes? Insulating just the holes does not result in zero leakage. I also see the isolation design as a step in solving the heating problem in the frozen north. I have a zero leakage design, but doubt that the zero leakage design would make a significant difference over the insulated holes. If it does it would go well over Faraday in my case which is a problem the way I see it. Carter
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

  7. Default

    BioFarmer93...

    Isn't the original voltage meter exactly that? You know from Volta himself? Anode in one container and Cathode in opposite side...Anyhow..Thanks for. Thanks for any suggestions..

  8. Default

    BioFarmer93...

    Isn't the original voltage meter exactly that? You know from Volta himself? Anode in one container and Cathode in opposite side? Anyhow.. Thanks for any suggestions..

    1216306255970963373johnpwarren_Hofmann_voltameter_svg_hi.jpg

  9. #9

    Default OOooohhh.. that's hard to answer....

    Carter, first of all, thank you. Now, hmmm... Well, if anyone has made that particular evaluation- " My question is has anybody tested the efficiency of a zero current leakage reactor system to prove that the extra work (expense) is really worth it, compared to just insulating the holes?" I am not aware of it, doesn't mean someone out there hasn't done it, just that I personally don't know. But what I can say with confidence is, it's not really all that much extra work. Did you see my short video about cutting 5 or 6 gaskets at a time with a router? Since I made that video I have figured out two important things about doing that... First is that the "keeper" side of the cut always has to be approached from the same direction, even more important on sheet PVC than wood. Second, the face plate of the router has to bear on a thin sheet of luan or aluminum or something that wont buckle or bunch under side loading. Applying the Weldon to the area of the holes on the plates only takes slightly less than a minute a plate.. The tight weave dacron for the ionic membranes would most likely be made most easily and quickly by laying two layers of the cloth between hinged or pin registered aluminum templates, weighted somewhat and then hot wire cut about their perimeter. Their holes could be plunge cut on the same template with a heated piece of coat hanger or music wire. Actually, I see it moving along rather smartly with a bit of set-up.

    Insulating just the holes does not result in zero leakage. I know that the drawing I submitted still leaves a bit to the imagination, and if I was one of those super motivated people with better time management skills than I actually possess, I would do the 3-D Sketchup of it with labels and clearer overlays, so folks could get a better idea how the gaskets work in conjunction with the Weldon around and in the plates gas holes. If the Weldon truly passes no current, as I have been assured it doesn't, then there really isn't any gas production in the duct area. I can't say there might not be a small amount of current leakage, but remember to bear in mind when visualizing this particular electrolyzer -there are no neutral plates, there cannot be, as it would contaminate the output.

  10. #10

    Default CNC- Man, that's what got me started..

    Mr. Taylors Physical Science, 7th. grade. He had one of those "H" style cells with a 6V lantern battery hooked up to it. Then he explained what was happening and why it was happening... Nothing has ever been the same since then!
    Anyway, yes.. The Isolation Cell is just a streamlined, modern day, multi-celled version of that. I honestly shouldn't call it the isolation "cell" as it actually has 20 cells.. But, "Isolated Gas Electrolyzer" is such a mouthful. -How was this used as a voltmeter? I didn't see that part -Gus

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