scrubber / bubbler

[22350]

I have a question, so.....

Let's move into the land of theoretical.

I am in a magical world, where I have two hydroxy generators.

The first hydroxy generator has two bubblers. Both bubblers have distilled water in them and use aquarium stones to break up the gas, as it passes through the liquid.

The second hydroxy generator has two bubblers. The first bubbler has 28% KOH and an aquarium stone. The second bubbler has clear water and an aquarium stone.

Now the question:

Is there any difference in the amount of water vapor and KOH in the gas, between our two generators?

Now let's go deeper down the rabbit hole.

What if each of our hydroxy generators only had one bubbler? The first generator's bubbler using 28% KOH and the second generator's bubbler using clear water.

Now the second question:

Why would it make any difference if there was KOH in the liquid of not? Wouldn't each of the liquids capture vapor just the same?

Please try not to think about I am asking these questions.

Just stay focused on the questions from the magic world.

thanks

[Roland Jacques]

1. Is there any difference in the amount of water vapor and KOH in the gas, between our two generators?

I'd say no difference in the amount of water vapor.
Id' would say the KOH amount would be different.
Bubblers are used by some to put water into gases, vaporizing the water.

2. Why would it make any difference if there was KOH in the liquid of not? Wouldn't each of the liquids capture vapor just the same?

Same answer, Bubblers are used by some to put water into gases, vaporizing the water.(not very effectivly IMO) So the bubbler with KOH in it is just vaporizing KOH water.



Bubbler don't remove water vapor buy themself. You can use a bubbler water vapor. But that is more due to it lowering the gas temperature and condensating some of the vapor than just bubbles going through water.

[BioFarmer93]

OK, magic magnifier glasses ON.. I'm riding up a distilled water column inside a fat bubble of HHO, wearing my protective suit, swatting giant microdroplets of water/KOH mix out of my way so I can see what's happening when they collide with the bubble wall.. Oh, cool, it's like the bubble wall just absorbs them like they were never there in the first place. Now I'm flying up out of the water along with a few of those microdroplets of KOH/water mix, but as I transitioned from the water to the interior atmosphere of the bubbler, I noticed that the disturbance of my bubble breaking the surface caused the formation of thousands more microdroplets of distilled water mixed with very dilute KOH. AAaarrgghhhh! We're being sucked into a giant tube! The massive vortex at the mouth of the tube causes some of the microdroplets to be flung against the wall and stick, and as I fly through this giant tube I see some of them drawn by the coolness of the wall and condense there with others, eventually melding together to form small pools. I now hear a great roaring sound, and as I look around I see that most of the droplets within my view are comprised of just water, with only the tiniest traces of KOH in them, obviously bubbler water... But here and there I see the occasional microdroplet that made it through the journey intact, to be transformed into something else completely through a torturous maelstrom of petroleum and fire... Man, glad I bailed at the air intake, huh?

But, the same journey undertaken with a KOH bubbler installed would contribute its microdroplets of full strength electrolyte to the gas flow, to be enjoyed by the steel it meets as a preservative, but terrifying any aluminum it encounters as a deadly destroyer..

HELP! Somebody pull me up out of this Rabbit Hole!!

[fastcompacts]

I have to agree with Biofarmer93. I would have to say that the 2 bubblers with water would be your best bet to get most of the KOH out before it gets to the engine. A bubbler filled with 28% KOH is just asking for trouble. I would have nightmares about getting that stuff in my engine. You didnt say where the bubbler was mounted but if it was mounted under your hood or trunk and somehow it spung a leak it would not be a good think at all. It may potential corrode away anything aluminum in got on, and the clean up would just be a royal pain. My question to you is what is the reasoning behind having a bubbler filled with KOH? I cant think of anything positive, but if you can i would like to know the theory behind it.

[Roland Jacques]

OK, magic magnifier glasses ON.. I'm riding up a distilled water column inside a fat bubble of HHO, wearing my protective suit, swatting giant microdroplets of water/KOH mix out of my way so I can see what's happening when they collide with the bubble wall.. Oh, cool, it's like the bubble wall just absorbs them like they were never there in the first place. Now I'm flying up out of the water along with a few of those microdroplets of KOH/water mix, but as I transitioned from the water to the interior atmosphere of the bubbler, I noticed that the disturbance of my bubble breaking the surface caused the formation of thousands more microdroplets of distilled water mixed with very dilute KOH. AAaarrgghhhh! We're being sucked into a giant tube! The massive vortex at the mouth of the tube causes some of the microdroplets to be flung against the wall and stick, and as I fly through this giant tube I see some of them drawn by the coolness of the wall and condense there with others, eventually melding together to form small pools. I now hear a great roaring sound, and as I look around I see that most of the droplets within my view are comprised of just water, with only the tiniest traces of KOH in them, obviously bubbler water... But here and there I see the occasional microdroplet that made it through the journey intact, to be transformed into something else completely through a torturous maelstrom of petroleum and fire... Man, glad I bailed at the air intake, huh?

But, the same journey undertaken with a KOH bubbler installed would contribute its microdroplets of full strength electrolyte to the gas flow, to be enjoyed by the steel it meets as a preservative, but terrifying any aluminum it encounters as a deadly destroyer..

HELP! Somebody pull me up out of this Rabbit Hole!!

Man i feel dizzy. They need this ride at Six Flags.

[22350]

OK, magic magnifier glasses ON.. I'm riding up a distilled water column inside a fat bubble of HHO, wearing my protective suit, swatting giant microdroplets of water/KOH mix out of my way so I can see what's happening when they collide with the bubble wall.. Oh, cool, it's like the bubble wall just absorbs them like they were never there in the first place. Now I'm flying up out of the water along with a few of those microdroplets of KOH/water mix, but as I transitioned from the water to the interior atmosphere of the bubbler, I noticed that the disturbance of my bubble breaking the surface caused the formation of thousands more microdroplets of distilled water mixed with very dilute KOH. AAaarrgghhhh! We're being sucked into a giant tube! The massive vortex at the mouth of the tube causes some of the microdroplets to be flung against the wall and stick, and as I fly through this giant tube I see some of them drawn by the coolness of the wall and condense there with others, eventually melding together to form small pools. I now hear a great roaring sound, and as I look around I see that most of the droplets within my view are comprised of just water, with only the tiniest traces of KOH in them, obviously bubbler water... But here and there I see the occasional microdroplet that made it through the journey intact, to be transformed into something else completely through a torturous maelstrom of petroleum and fire... Man, glad I bailed at the air intake, huh?

But, the same journey undertaken with a KOH bubbler installed would contribute its microdroplets of full strength electrolyte to the gas flow, to be enjoyed by the steel it meets as a preservative, but terrifying any aluminum it encounters as a deadly destroyer..

HELP! Somebody pull me up out of this Rabbit Hole!!

Thanks for this reply.

So the contention here is the micro-droplets inside the bubble will be absorbed into the bubble wall better with clear distilled water vs. KOH solution?

Why would those droplets get absorbed into your bubble wall differently? Wouldn't that would leave the rest of the process identical?

The only difference I see is that there is KOH vapors in the atmosphere of the first bubbler, but if you consider the first bubbler as the steam remover and the second bubbler as the vapor remover, I am not sure what the difference is.

[BioFarmer93]

"So the contention here is the micro-droplets inside the bubble will be absorbed into the bubble wall better with clear distilled water vs. KOH solution?"

No, that is not the contention at all. As I re-read my post, I can't see that I ever even inferred that.

"What if each of our hydroxy generators only had one bubbler?"

My response was based on this question, utilizing only one bubbler on each of the hypothetical e-lyzers, -one that used water, one that used e-lyte.

"The only difference I see is that there is KOH vapors in the atmosphere of the first bubbler, but if you consider the first bubbler as the steam remover and the second bubbler as the vapor remover, I am not sure what the difference is."

I don't necessarily see the first bubbler as a steam remover, since steam seems to makes it through bubblers all the time, and depending on the operating temp of the entire system, steam would sometimes make it through a second bubbler too. Better to add some interference turbulation for caustic removal. The second bubbler is going to work the same way as the first, possibly a little better because of a greater temp. differential, but this will even out as the system runs. Besides, bubblers add their own water vapor to the gas. There are only a few ways to remove water vapor from gas that are going to be feasible with the space available in a car. (I assume we are talking about an automotive system since I don't actually recall reading otherwise.) The most feasible would be a desicant chamber, which would have to be changed daily with a freshly dried one, or a chiller of some variety to condense the moisture. There are other methods but they depend on high flow rates and pressurizing the gas.
The easiest route would be to simply run two or three well built fresh water bubblers in series and not worry about it. Water vapor doesn't harm your engine.

On a personal note, I don't use aquarium stones. I use a water reservoir for the e-lyzer and two 2" dia. 16" tall PVC bubblers connected in series that have five plastic pot scrubbers evenly spaced along their height. The first one uses about a 5-10% distilled white vinegar solution and the second one uses fresh water.The pot scrubbers break up the bubbles over and over and over, increasing turbulence (scrubbing) and bubble wall (interface) area for any given volume of gas vs. large or small non-turbulated bubbles. Water vapor doesn't worry me, only caustics, so I go to extra lengths (some might feel) to remove as much as practicable.

[22350]

biofarmer,

I do want you to know that I hold no anamosity toward you.

If I ask questions, it's because I am trying to understand what yo are saying.

My understanding of the scrubber is that you want to break the bubbles up. What you say about the plastic scrubbers makes sense. Bob Boyce suggested 1 micron water filters.

regarding the bubbles moving through the liquid. I understood by your statement about water / KOH droplets being absorbed into the bubble walls, to mean that the outside kiquid was absorbing it.

if the goal with my first bubbler is to get rid of any water vapor / steam, I just didn't see why koh solution wouldn't do that.

[BioFarmer93]

22350, thanks, we're cool-

OK, I think I finally see where you are going with this.. The two are going to function identically, removing the same amounts of mist or vapor initially.. BUT, and here is the rub, the KOH bubbler will add back in its microdroplets of your 28% e-lyte in the bubbling process, where the distilled water bubbler would add back in its microdroplets (mist, moisture, vapor) of nice harmless water.

[22350]

22350, thanks, we're cool-

OK, I think I finally see where you are going with this.. The two are going to function identically, removing the same amounts of mist or vapor initially.. BUT, and here is the rub, the KOH bubbler will add back in its microdroplets of your 28% e-lyte in the bubbling process, where the distilled water bubbler would add back in its microdroplets (mist, moisture, vapor) of nice harmless water.

Basically my situation is that I have real estate, within a built in sump. If I can accomplish the first of two scrubbers, within the electrolyser, it saves me a lot of space.

Regardless, I am going to have KOH fumes coming out the electrolyser, but if I can kill any steam I will be ahead of the game.