Eliminate this possibility, please.

[candyman55]

Guys,
I tried the aluminum thing yesterday. I had a piece of 3" Alum. tube on the shelf so I thought I would check things out for myself. Since I have been working on tube cells i also had several pieces of ss in diffrent sizes.

I hooked the 3" tube up neg. and inserted a piece of 2-1/2" stainless inside as positive electrode. Catalyst -- I used rain water mixed with a fair amount of vinegar. Started producing instantly, comparable to ss tubes, If the gas it was producing was mostly hydrogen. I would have to say this combination will definitely out produce ss.

someone else give it a try, and verify this.

[stickittoopec]

I'm probably the one referenced here. I have been testing this and posted about this. My site is http://www.stickittoopec.com/index.html. It does not make HHO, it makes very pure hydrogen This is not new it's been around for a while. The guy I got it from liked the output of his unit but could not control it. That is what I figured out. The two small pieces of coiled up aluminum is what was used to make the video. If you want to do it with electrolysis the aluminum must be the cathode. They use this in fuel cells all the time. If you use it for the anode it doesn't work I don't know why but I've tried it and it did nothing when used as the anode. When I used it as the cathode it made quite a bit of gas and when I took the current away it still was producing gas on its own.
The chemical reaction I did made a lot of heat that is where the oxygen is consumed. They NaOH attacks the oxide layer on the aluminum the oxygen and the aluminum react to make alumina the two hydrogen atoms float away and the cycle continues until the aluminum is consumed or you use up the water. What I did was make a chamber to allow the pressure to push the electrolyte away from the aluminum to stop the reaction and keep the pressure under control. You put a gas solenoid in the gas line, when the solenoid is off the pressure builds up and pushes the liquid into the next chamber and maintains the gas under pressure until the solenoid is open. I use PVC to test my pressure chamber idea but it got too hot and I had to put it in a bucket to cool it down so as not to melt the PVC. The chamber worked. It maintained about 15 psi when I plug the end.
This reaction makes steam also, so a condensing chamber would have to be part of the design as well. This is not for a small car it would most likely be for a truck or other large vehicle or stationary engine like a generator.

[mangyhyena]

Are you saying that there is something to this aluminum thing? Man, have I got questions for you. lol. Thanks for jumping in here, BTW. I sent you a PM to alert you about this thread and I'm glad you showed up.

Ok, first off, what, exactly, is breaking this film on the aluminum? Is it the electricity or the solution in your water?

Second, would you please explain again, in layman's terms, exactly how the aluminum is breaking the hydrogen loose? (I had just read about aluminum breaking hydrogen loose a day before I posted and I don't think I got enough info on how it works to reasonably understand it.)

Third, in terms of what size engine a unit like yours is capable of running, how much are you pushing out of your hydrogen generator? Could your unit run an 8KW generator and come out with a net gain in power? Because I would be very interested in that as I plan to be off the grid within a year from now and I would love to give this a try.

Fourth, how long can the reaction be sustained and with how much aluminum, judging from what you've been working with? (Not looking for exact numbers. Just what you believe from your work so far.)

Fifth, once the aluminum gets going with the chemical reaction, will the film try to reform or is it good to go until the aluminum or water level give out? In other words, could you cut the electricity being put into it once it's going or does it need to stay on?

Sixth, thanks again. Anything you can do to educate me about this is greatly appreciated. I'm heading to your website now.

[computerclinic]

So there is hydrogen generation via chemical reaction, and then additional HHO generation when electricity is applied?

This sounds like a really cool experiment. How can you stop the chemical reaction on demand?

[stickittoopec]

So there is hydrogen generation via chemical reaction, and then additional HHO generation when electricity is applied?
This sounds like a really cool experiment. How can you stop the chemical reaction on demand?

There is no electricity in this and it makes pure hydrogen.
Controlling it is the easy part just let the pressure do all the work. You have to be careful to build the expansion chamber the right size. If you get it too small the pressure could be to high for the material or solenoid you use to cut it off with. I did a test with PVC (not the stuff to build a working device with) and it worked great. I could pinch off the hose and it would go to about 15 psi and stop. Adjust the water level and get more or less pressure. You can see it in action here. http://www.stickittoopec.com/gas.html

Are you saying that there is something to this aluminum thing? Man, have I got questions for you.

Yes The video shows everything.

Ok, first off, what, exactly, is breaking this film on the aluminum? Is it the electricity or the solution in your water? Second, would you please explain again, in layman's terms, exactly how the aluminum is breaking the hydrogen loose? (I had just read about aluminum breaking hydrogen loose a day before I posted and I don't think I got enough info on how it works to reasonably understand it.)

First there is no electricity in this reaction. There is a way to use it but you don't need it in this reaction.
Aluminum wants to be alumina, but the oxide keeps that from happening. The NaOH reacts with the oxide and allows the oxygen and aluminum to react. Out of this reaction you get alumina and heat (lots of heat) and the 2 hydrogen atoms are freed up and float off. (Simple answer there is more to it)

Third, in terms of what size engine a unit like yours is capable of running, how much are you pushing out of your hydrogen generator? Could your unit run an 8KW generator and come out with a net gain in power? Because I would be very interested in that as I plan to be off the grid within a year from now and I would love to give this a try. Fourth, how long can the reaction be sustained and with how much aluminum, judging from what you've been working with? (Not looking for exact numbers. Just what you believe from your work so far.)

I designed this to boost the fuel like the electric units. This would be for a pickup truck .It would take a very large unit to try and run a large engine. More testing needs to be done to see how long it can last. I got about 15 minutes out of the two small coils of aluminum flashing I used. Other metals will work also. Sulfuric acid can be used for a reaction also. Sulfuric acid will react with some metals and make hydrogen. By the way this makes very pure hydrogen. The electric units make 2 H2 O2 so 1/3 of what they make is oxygen. This almost makes pure hydrogen the oxygen is consumed in the reaction. I need stainless steel pipe (not cheap) to build a working model to handle the heat. Then I can continue the test.

Fourth, how long can the reaction be sustained and with how much aluminum, judging from what you've been working with? (Not looking for exact numbers. Just what you believe from your work so far.)

Don't know but the bigger the piece the longer it will last. This thing gets very hot so it makes steam also. There will have to be a condenser to convert the steam back to water or you will boil the water out of the cell. This is in the very early stages. I still have things to work out. But this can be made to work.

[Smith03Jetta]

This conversation is getting more and more exciting. Thanks for sharing. I've got lots of aluminum laying around and a penchant for experimenting with new stuff.

I am thinking about experimenting with this. I would see my experiment going like this.

I have two containers. One has a lid on it that can hold pressure. I will call this container my reaction chamber. Inside this reaction chamber is an elevated grating holding aluminum soda cans or billet or whatever. It doesn't really matter the source of the aluminum or how much is put into the container. I seal the container. On the sealed lid is an output tube. The output tube has a pressure regulator on it that is adjustable. I set the pressure regulator at "n" psi.

The second container will be called my overflow chamber. It is larger than the reaction chamber. The two containers are connected on the bottom by a tube. There is a solenoid valve on this connector tube that is normally in the open position. The valve is in the closed position at this time.. I will partially fill the overflow chamber with Water/NaOH mixture. Fill amount will be 1.5 times the volume of the reaction chamber for pressure reasons... (Don't ask me to explain)

I open the solenoid valve and allow the H2O/NaOH mixture to flow into the reaction chamber. The liquid level will rise until it either reaches the aluminum or the valve on the gas tube causes the pressure to rise and stops it from rising any higher.

I will open the gas solenoid on the gas line and adjust the pressure regulator until the liquid level reaches the aluminum. This should start the hydrogen reaction. As the reaction continues the gas volume inside the reaction chamber will increase. Two things can happen. Either the regulator valve will let some of the hydrogen gas out or the liquid will be forced out the bottom of the reaction chamber. The regulator can be adjusted so a desired amount of hydrogen is piped out of the reaction chamber.

Hydrogen will push out through the regulated tube. At the same time fluid will be pushed out the bottom tube. This free movement will self regulate the amount of gas being created. The water will rise and touch the aluminum and then drop again as the gas pressure increases. It is all controlled by the pressure regulator. An second solenoid valve on the gas line will be used to turn the reactor on and off. It is normally in the closed position unless hydrogen is requested.

The pressure regulator is the key to this whole process. To refill the reactor, just close the bottom fluid control valve and open a port on the top of the reaction chamber. Drop in some aluminum scrap and close the port again.

Unknowns are:

How long will the water/NaOH mixture last before needing to be changed out.
How do you treat the waste water? Can the aluminum oxide/sludge/derivative be recycled/reused?
Ratio of Aluminum/Water used to amount of Hydrogen produced.
Ratio of Water to NaOH.
What to build the reaction chamber and overflow chamber from?
How to cool the unit.

[stickittoopec]

Smith
Watch out for the soda cans. They have a coating on them that gums up the works. I'm going to melt the aluminum and use a sand mold in a star shape (a long bar that is grooved on the sides) to increase surface contact. Put several of these in the reaction chamber and there will be lots of gas when it gets going. The aluminum in the soda cans is soft and makes gas quick but the coating makes a mess.
If the expansion chamber is air tight you won't need a solenoid between the reaction chamber and the expansion chamber. If you size it right the pressure will regulate the reaction. Then you have less parts to break and less places to leak. The one I made keeps about 15 to 20 psi when the gas hose is blocked off and then quits reacting until I let some gas out. When first experimenting just be sure to have a plan if the pressure gets away from you. This thing can make pressure fast and lots of heat. If you watch the video you will see how much gas it makes with just a couple small pieces of aluminum flashing coiled up.
The byproduct is alumina and can be saved and when you get enough, the aluminum companies might be interested in it. It is pure alumina that they won't have to mine or clean and process as much as the raw material. It will take you a while to make that much.
Answer to some of the unknowns, based on my test.

Unknowns are:
How long will the water/NaOH mixture last before needing to be changed out..

If the aluminum is clean, all you will have to add is water and aluminum. The lye is not consumed.

How do you treat the waste water? Can the aluminum oxide/sludge/derivative be recycled/reused?.

If clean aluminum is used no sludge just alumina.

Ratio of Aluminum/Water used to amount of Hydrogen produced..

How much room do you have in your reactor? I haven't done enough test to establish quantity yet.

Ratio of Water to NaOH.

I saturated the mix with NaOH.

What to build the reaction chamber and overflow chamber from?

This is important I believe it should be metal, Copper or 304 or 316 stainless steel will work. But don't use cast iron or brass as they will react.

How to cool the unit.

If the unit is made out of metal it won't matter but the gas will need cooling to condense the steam, and any lye that may be carried out with the steam and reclaim them. I have a few ideas that I'm working on.

[mangyhyena]

I've seen lawnmower engines run off HHO produced in electrolyzers on U-Tube.

What I'm wondering is if one of these units could run a 5HP generator. It shouldn't take all that much hydrogen compared to attempting to run a larger engine, like a vehicle's engine. If we want to get people interested in these hydrogen generators all we would need to do is run a small 5HP generator off of one and show electrical appliances plugged in and running on U-Tube. People would get the idea pretty quick, I think.


BTW, is it possible to burn that film off using electricity sans the acid? Just wondering.

candyman55 did an experiment using an aluminum pipe in his electrolyzer. What was happening in his unit? Was he making HHO or hydrogen or both? Does vinegar eat away at the film on aluminum? Why was he getting better production with an aluminum pipe?

[stickittoopec]

I've seen lawnmower engines run off HHO produced in electrolyzers on U-Tube.
What I'm wondering is if one of these units could run a 5HP generator. It shouldn't take all that much hydrogen compared to attempting to run a larger engine, like a vehicle's engine. If we want to get people interested in these hydrogen generators all we would need to do is run a small 5HP generator off of one and show electrical appliances plugged in and running on U-Tube. People would get the idea pretty quick, I think.

BTW, is it possible to burn that film off using electricity sans the acid? Just wondering.

I haven't seen a video on Youtube with a lawn mower running on HHO that I would believe, except the ones that usually end up blowing the top off the bubbler. The reason is, the newer small engines with electronic ignition have a waste spark that causes a back fire with hydrogen. Also when running on straight hydrogen you have to move the timing closer to top dead center. I don't know if you can adjust the timing on these engines. Roy Mc Alister (President of the American Hydrogen Association) has a video on hydrogen boosting and running on straight hydrogen and there is good information in his book.
“The Philosopher Mechanic” You can find them here.
http://www.knowledgepublications.com...etail_page.htm
http://www.knowledgepublications.com...etail_page.htm

candyman55 did an experiment using an aluminum pipe in his electrolyzer. What was happening in his unit? Was he making HHO or hydrogen or both? Does vinegar eat away at the film on aluminum? Why was he getting better production with an aluminum pipe?

I actually tried that also. I'll look and see if I still have the video of it somewhere. I used a stainless wall plate as the anode and a piece of aluminum conduit as the cathode. I think the electrolyte was baking soda. It made quite a bit of gas. I was out side and it started raining so I unhooked everything and took all the electrical stuff inside, when I came back for the electrolyzer it was still making gas, not as much but it was going by itself. The reaction here is the same only current is being used to break through the oxide layer. The oxygen in the water reacts with the aluminum to make alumina and that frees up the 2 hydrogen atoms. What surprised me was the reaction kept going ( although not as strong) after the current was removed.

[mangyhyena]

"I actually tried that also. I'll look and see if I still have the video of it somewhere. I used a stainless wall plate as the anode and a piece of aluminum conduit as the cathode. I think the electrolyte was baking soda. It made quite a bit of gas. I was out side and it started raining so I unhooked everything and took all the electrical stuff inside, when I came back for the electrolyzer it was still making gas, not as much but it was going by itself. The reaction here is the same only current is being used to break through the oxide layer. The oxygen in the water reacts with the aluminum to make alumina and that frees up the 2 hydrogen atoms. What surprised me was the reaction kept going ( although not as strong) after the current was removed."

Wow, so current can get the reaction going. When you removed the current and it kept going, at a lower production rate, I wonder if the film was reforming. Given more time I assume the reaction would have stopped.
I wonder what the minimum amount of current required to break the film is. If it is lower than electrolyzing, wouldn't you be able to make enough to run a generator? I've been looking high and low for a closed loop system where the generator supplies the power it takes to run itself while still having enough left over to use. I realize using aluminum would be "cheating" as the aluminum is what would actually be breaking hydrogen loose, but the end result would be the same with the one qualifier being that you have to supply the aluminum.
I found a book on converting engines to run on hydrogen. I think I'll order it and see if we can get a generator to run itself by either adding current to aluminum to get hydrogen, or off the hydrogen produced via chemical reaction.

Lastly, a friend of mine was telling me how he used to buff off the paint on aluminum cans for the heck of it. It made me wonder if an aluminum can could be used in the reaction if the printing was buffed off. Might be more work than it's worth. Don't know.

My last question would be, is the exhaust clean when using the hydrogen produced in an acid bath or does some of the pollution make it through the system and out the exhaust?

You all are great, BTW. Unbelievable commitment from you all. Thanks.