Why use N plates?

[viper_1986_1986]

I am still very unclear on this, but after reading the great forums here i THINK i may get it.

Why would you use a setup of - N N N + N N N - vs - + - + -?
I have attemped both of these and the N cells do NOTHING, and my overall amps DROPS like a rock and i get less bubbles?

From what i learned today the use of N cells is ONLY usfull if you are using a "dry cell"? Which means that the water between the plates are almost sealed as to FORCE the current to go from the end - THROUGH the N N N, thus making them wanna be -s? Thus you get free bubbles from a plate that is not powered and less amps, so less heat? But that means less bubles?

Very unclear and i dont see the point in this?

[hhoconnection]

You need to use neutral plates to drop the voltage between plates down to 2.0 - 2.2 volts. If you wire +-+- then you will be getting 12 volts between each plate. Anything over 2.2 volts is wasted and there will be a lot of heat buildup. Turn your cell on and see how fast it heats up, pretty soon you will be making steam. Yes you will see your amp draw drop dramatically when you add neutral plates. You will just need to add more electrolyte to get your amp draw up. I run 5 neutrals and I can run my cell all day without overheating.

[rcflyn]

as hhoconnection stated...
you WILL build up Heat, and FAST....

Add the N Plates, UP the concentration for the E-Lyte, Keep the volts per gap around the 2.0V range, and you'll be a happy camper.
I too can run my cell ALL DAY Long, and not get much over the 150F mark. (wet cell). Havent had a chance to Check the Temp on the Dry Cell, but with 6 N plates, it stays Just warm to the touch.

[viper_1986_1986]

ok so just throwing in 1 n plate drops all plates by 2volts or so... so 5 n plates would be ideal. I would be -+n-+n-+n-+n-+n-+
And just add more (in my case) baking soda, to rebuild the amps up and not lose bubbles.

[rcflyn]

NO, NO, NO...
-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-
Or
-NNNNN+NNNNN-

Or combinations like that...

All my cells have the 6 N's setup....

And ditch the Baking Soda... Get KOH... or NAOH....
I can't remember which TOXIN, or harmful gas Baking Soda produces, but it's NOT a good E-Lyte substance...

[viper_1986_1986]

After reading much more on this site i see even without a "dry cell" the +NNNNN--NNNNN+ seems to be "the best" but i am still unclear as to WHY.

I just had custom plates cut, i am have 20 in all varying in sizes so i can fill up a PCV pipe.
I have not drilled any screw holes yet or picked up nuts.
So with 20 plates it would be best to have something like

+NNNN-NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+
Or something like
+NNNNNNNN-NNNNNNNNNN+

From what i understand i still believe -+-+-+-+-+-+-ect all the way through is BEST and just put LOW amounts of e-lyte and lower the voltage to the plates (or use PWM)

I also know very well using baking soda is bad, but it is just cheaper and better than salt.
As soon as i start doing long tests i do plan on upgrading from baking soda

edit:
So doing some SIMPLE tests with just + + N - - (double - + are to keep the pieces UP right and not fall over...)
I can see the N acts as a - and produces bubbles, like a - and that the voltage is cut in 1/2.

So having more Ns gives off FREE bubbles acting as -s but cost you voltage and you ONLY need 2.1 volts per a plate? I believe that is the number i have read before....

So how much is the voltage dropped with each N plate?
From my single test here it was cut in 1/2 10.5v to around 5.3v. Meaning for every + and - only 3 N should be used...

[rcflyn]

Oddly enough, The "N" Plate, doesn't turn into JUST a "NEG" Plate.
It actually becomes Negative on one side, and Positive on the other side.
Which is why some people call them "BI-Polar" plates. (I don't think I've seen that phrase on THIS Forum tho). and Yes, you Will get "Bubbles" off all the "BI-Polar" Plates.
There is also experementations going on to try to Prove that even MORE Bi-Polar plates per reactor is more benificial. Everybody talks about the 2.0-2.4 Volt being the Place to be. but from what I understand, 1.4V per plate gap will start electrolosys. Like I say, that's in the experementing stages right now, but I hear it's working pretty good, and keeping reactors even cooler running...

With you only supplying 10.6 Volts, you wouldn't need the 6 bi-Polar plates to keep your gap in the 2V Range. Play with adding them, find the sweet spot, and test it...

[BeaverRat]

Ok,

If you wired the cell up as +-+-+-+-+- you would get very high amp draw and very high heat. The reason that you get more amp draw is because you have a higher voltage per gap (12 in fact): More volts=more amps and more heat. The reason that you get more heat is because electrolysis starts at somewhere around 1.4 volts and anything over that is wasted off as heat. If you are using a 12 volt PSU and you have no neutral plates, you have about 2 volts of that creating HHO and 10 volts making heat.

If you wired the cell up as +NNNNN-NNNNN+ you would get less amp draw because you have a lower voltage per plate gap (measuring the voltage of two side by side plates). This will put you around 2.2-2.3 volts per plate gap which has 2 volts going towards production and about .2 volts wasted as heat. Because you get less amp draw you have to counter this effect by adding more electrolyte. This is a much more effecient design because you have the majority of the power being used for electrolysis, not heat.

The reason most people run the cell with 5 N's is because any more than that and it becomes difficult to get the cell to draw amperage. Although the cell becomes colder running and more efficent, you have to make a balance between efficiency and amps. As said before, amps come with volts. You can only add so much electrolyte, so most people settle with 5 neutral plates.

Hope this helped to clear it up a bit.

[viper_1986_1986]

Ok that cleared things up a lot, even more with me doing different test.

Even if a +nnnnn-nnnnn+ makes same amont of HHO as +-+-+ the one with Ns is WAY better cause its way cooler.

[HHOJeeper]

I also know very well using baking soda is bad, but it is just cheaper and better than salt.
As soon as i start doing long tests i do plan on upgrading from baking soda

Want better electrolyte without paying a ton over the net for it? Just go to walmart and the back right corner(new superstore floor layout) with the septic treatments there is a generic drain cleaner that is distilled or sterile water, Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide. Just the hazard sheet, should be in a binder nearby, to find out the exact concentrations of each if you care. Its 7 dollars per 2liters.