Cells, how far apart.

[N11634]

I'm a newbie trying to soak up all the information I can before starting my cell. I don't know the terminology, but I'm planning on making a generator that has the plates sandwiched together and bolted together by plastic outer plates. I'm going to make a 3-cell stack to be exact. Anyone who can give me the technical name for this, please do.
My question is how far apart should I make the stainless plates for optimal output. I will be using this in a 12-volt system, so from what I understand, I need 4 neutral plates between the positive and negative plates. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Any beginner tips anyone can give will be helpful. I've tried searches, but without knowing the terminology, I never know which type of cell I'm reading about.
Thanks in advance.

[BeaverRat]

Ok, so starting on the voltage and N plates, if you are running off of 13.8 volts which are Lab PSU's and Car batteries than you need to have 5 N plates per stack. If you are truly running off of 12 volts than you are correct in that you will want 4 N plates. I am running off of a 12 volt converted ATX PSU and with 4 neutrals I am getting a voltage of 2.3 per plate gap. On to plate gap-

-what size plates do you plan on using?
-what amperage are you going to run it at? (Just curious)

As a basic idea, I have heard that a gap of 1/8" is pretty good if you have a fairly strong KOH or NaOh concentration. I would get 1/8th inch nitrile or neoprene gaskets. Get 70A durometer if you can. A good place to get these from is McMaster-Carr for an online store or if you can get them local do that.

[N11634]

Thanks for the reply.
I have since discovered a different cell combination that has me re-thinking my design. I thought each bank of cells had to be seperated, I see now they can actually be stacked together and share the end plates.
I was looking at about 6X6" plates, however many I would need to make 3 cells, which now looks like 19 if my figuring is right off the top of my head. I had the amperage number of 30A in my head to start with.
This system is going to go in an '05 Avalanche with a 5.3L, so from what I've read I'll need somewhere around 5 LPM. Is my cell combination going to get me there? If I need another configuration, please let me know. I want to get this right the first time.

One more question, the durometer you mentioned, I thought those were for measuring how hard something is. I'm assuming there's another type for this application?
Thanks again!
I'll probably have many more questions to come.

[BeaverRat]

Ok, here is what you will want:

13.8 volts = -NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+ This is three stacks for a total of 19 plates.

12 volts = -NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+ This is also three stacks for a total of 16 plates.

Since it is going in your car, use the first one at 13.8 volts. To achieve 4 LPM with this cell you would need about 48 amps at 13.8 volts. This is saying you would have an MMW of around 6 which means you would have to build a 0 energy leakage cell. A more reasonable MMW is 5.5 or 5.6 and for that you would need 52 amps for 4 LPM.

The durometer is the hardness of the rubber gasket. You want a good balance between no electrolyte leakage and not compressing your gap too much.

[N11634]

OK, you're a bit ahead of me. I hate to make myself look stupid, but a lot of the posts I read are using lots of abbreviatioins and the only way to figure them out is by context, if possible.
First, what's an MMW?
Second, what would I need to do to bring the amps down and boost the output.....AND/OR is 4LPM enough to get me some respectable MPG numbers from a 5.3L V-8?
Third, what's a 0 energy leakage cell and how does it differ from what I'm hoping to build?
Fourth, what is the cell type called that I am planning to build? I think it's a dry cell, right?
I'm hoping to browse the forums a bit more tonight, so I may figure some of this out. I'm a quick study. I'll get this! The trick for me is learning the lingo.

[N11634]

Good to hear. That's pretty good mileage. I'm hoping for more, but I'd take that any day vs. the 10/17.5 I'm getting now. I'm averaging about 13 with more city driving than highway.
What kind of luck have people been having with a Volo? I hate to have to screw around with the O2 sensors if I don't have to.

Do you think I will need to mess with the aft O2 sensors on a GM or is that a Ford thing?

[BeaverRat]

OK, you're a bit ahead of me. I hate to make myself look stupid, but a lot of the posts I read are using lots of abbreviatioins and the only way to figure them out is by context, if possible.
First, what's an MMW?
Second, what would I need to do to bring the amps down and boost the output.....AND/OR is 4LPM enough to get me some respectable MPG numbers from a 5.3L V-8?
Third, what's a 0 energy leakage cell and how does it differ from what I'm hoping to build?
Fourth, what is the cell type called that I am planning to build? I think it's a dry cell, right?
I'm hoping to browse the forums a bit more tonight, so I may figure some of this out. I'm a quick study. I'll get this! The trick for me is learning the lingo.

MMW is Millileters per minute per watt. It is basically a way of measuring the efficiency of a cell. I compares how much power a cell is pulling vs how much it is producing. A dry cell with no modification will probably get in the 5.5 MMW range. If you don't have a pulse width modulator (a way of limiting amp draw) you can control the current by adding electrolyte until the cell reaches the power you want. The downside of this is the cell will pull less amperage when it first starts up and gradually start producing more HHO as the cell warms up.

A little background on current leakage... In a wet cell, or a cell in which the plates are submerged underwater in some sort of reservoir, you will get aweful current leakage. Current leakage is when some of the current doesn't flow directly to the next plate but instead radiates out into the electrolyte. This greatly reduces efficiency. The easiest way to fix most current leakage problems is to build a dry cell. A dry cell works better because the current has no choice but to travel through the electrolyte to the next plate. The contact area on a dry cell is surrounded by a rubber gasket so the electrolyte only contacts the cell in a usefull area. Even with dry cells there is a little leakage still happening. This is caused by the holes in the plates used to curculate electrolyte and gas (generally once hole near the top of the plate and one at the bottom right next to the gasket). The ways to fix this are usually complicated because you have to build a no-hole dry cell that curcualtes the water using shims or multiple tubes. One way people have tried with limited success is to try and surround the holes with an insulator so the cell doesn't produce around the holes. This will work if you can find a glue or something that won't dissintigrate from electrolysis and the corrosive electrolyte.

Hope this cleared up some things for you...

[N11634]

That clears things up a lot, thanks Beaver Rat.
I've heard it's better to alternate these holes in the plates to improve efficiency. Is this true?

koya1893, I guess it'll be trial & error. I'll likely try the Kolo first, since they seem to be willing to take it back if it won't work.

Thank you both for the replies.