just the idea

[linkintiger]

i was wonder if couple of you the "knowledge" guys get together and maybe create Sticky post about hho from A to Z. Like point 0. before you start you should know 1.all about plates 2.all about electricity 3.all about electrolyte 4.cell vs cell ....

[linkintiger]

i think the biggest challenge will be to eliminate the oxygen from hho gas ,no oxygen no O2 sensors problem. I was wonder if there is any material maybe like the carbon i water filter or something that that will absorb the oxygen and leave clean hydrogen.

i realized that there is a looot of secrets and not everything here on the forum is write on.

Like a simple thing you guys are saying to use KOH 28% to get the best production when i ask my chemistry teacher he was laughing and ask me who came with this brilliant idea and he promise to explain me after the spring brake why KOH is not a number 1 electrolite to use in the cell. he told me that my spend so much money on KOH when is all about saving money. I will just wait for him. But then i am thinking if i will know why telling that on the forum if everyone is having their own secrets?

[Philldpapill]

Generally, the O2 sensors are in the exhaust(correct me if I'm wrong). If that is the case, then they are only detecting the amount of unused oxygen. If you add 2H2 and O2, then there wouldn't(ideally) be any unused oxygen from the hydrogen-oxygen intake. In other words, Hydrogen/Oxygen mixtures don't contribute to the unused O2 in the exhaust, and therefore don't affect the sensors.

(This is my understanding, but I'm not a chemist/car guy/mechanic/etc. Electronics are my thing.)

[H2OPWR]

Generally, the O2 sensors are in the exhaust(correct me if I'm wrong). If that is the case, then they are only detecting the amount of unused oxygen. If you add 2H2 and O2, then there wouldn't(ideally) be any unused oxygen from the hydrogen-oxygen intake. In other words, Hydrogen/Oxygen mixtures don't contribute to the unused O2 in the exhaust, and therefore don't affect the sensors.

(This is my understanding, but I'm not a chemist/car guy/mechanic/etc. Electronics are my thing.)

You are correct, Actually O2's and A/F sensors are designed to measure unburned fuel in the exhaust. The problem is that adding HHO results in a more complete burn. Exactly the same as adding just hydrogen. Removing the oxygen will not help since the basic concept of saving fuel is a more complete burn of the gasoline during the power stroke. The only answer will eventually be an ECU that is designed to run an ICE using gasoline AND HHO. Until that happens we will continue to spin our wheels. After that happens we will not be able to run the engine on gasoline alone. The mixture would be too lean.

Larry

[Philldpapill]

Koya, this is just plain old chemical equations at work... If you add extra hydrogen, the only substantial products in the combustion(with regards to H2) are going to be water, and water... That means the H2 will eat up oxygen, and you won't have extra oxygen in the exhaust - you'd have less. I'm not sure what you mean by "make the combustion process very efficient"... Do you mean more thermal energy is converted into mechanical energy, or do you mean more of the hydrocarbons in the gasoline are converted into CO2 and water? I can buy the second claim, but I know of anything to back it up with, however. Yes, it is logical to assume that with a more complete chemical reaction, less pollutants would be produced, but that has nothing to do with the introduction of hydrogen; it has everything to do with the molecules in the air, and the temperature at which they burn(e.g. introduction of N2 will generally produce nitrous oxides).

I've seen people say that the flame speed of hydrogen is faster than that of gasoline, but we, as a community, need to gather some actual measurements/data/research sources for this claim. Otherwise, it's just speculation and meaningless. You seem to know a good bit about the inner workings of what goes in with the introduction of hydrogen/oxygen... Can you elaborate on this a bit? I'm not a chemist, but I have a fair knowledge of chemistry so talk loudly and slowly so I can understand. Seriously, I've always been curious as to what is going on in there when it burns.

[RustyLugNut]

Combustion Theory is a complex affair.

Koya, the fact that you erroneously think adding HHO will effect your O2 sensors leads me to conclude you are are not adept in the basic concepts of combustion theory.

Phill has stated the result very simply, that a balanced mix (stoicheometric) of HHO blended with a balanced mix of fuel and air will result in the near complete combustion of both the fuel/air mix and the HHO. There will be little deviation from a lambda of 1.

Modern engines already have a combustion completion efficiency of about 98%, so there is not much in the way of unburnt fuel to gain more fuel efficiency.

The addition of hydrogen does increase flame speed as you have indicated in the links. There are far more research links to add to these, but the bottom line is hydrogen has roughly an order of magnitude greater flame speed than hydrocarbon gasses and vapors in air. By adding small amounts of H2, the fuel/air mix will gain increasing flame speed (we are referring to a spark ignited engine - diesels have a somewhat different theory of H2 augmentation).

The means an engine can gain fuel efficiency is by mechanical advantage. The greater the pressure rise during the 0 - 180 degree arc of the crank results in greater torque produced ( common knowledge - google BMEP). The increased flame speed of a H2 augmented fuel mix means less energy need be released before and after the 0 to 180 degree arc - energy that results in negative torque and power.

As air fuel ratios increase, the flame speed decreases until the mixture is too lean for reliable ignition. Hi swirl heads along with direct injection can reach about 30 parts air to 1 part fuel. A normal engine head that would flame out at 24:1 can easily reach or exceed that 30:1 mix with the addition of H2. The H2 also increases the slow flame speed of a lean mix increasing the torque production at these thin mixes. This is how some HHO users accidentally hit a "sweet spot" of using O2 sensor modifications to lean their engine fuel air mix and then drive for long periods of time in that sweet spot. The engine timing would need to be retarded for H2 augmented fuel air mixes at lambda = 1, but by modifying the O2 sensor signal to lean the fuel/air mix, you don't really have to.

The combustion theory behind hydrogen augmentation cannot be covered in one post, but, it can be summed up in the idea that it increases flame speed and extends the flame limit. How you take advantage of these two ideas is the problem most people are having in dealing with their ECU controlled engines.

Koya has provided some links that start the support for these two ideas. There are far more. I have printouts of research papers that go back forty years and more. They sit in a stack 2 feet high. If you desire support for the ideas of "increased flame speed" and "extended lean flammability limit", just google it and get a flood of top notch research papers.

[Owen_]

I have only read the first post on this thread, from a quick skim, it seems have gone to O2 sensor talk....
but anyway, it would be great to have a "FAQ" part of the site, maybe wiki style. There are just so many people asking the same questions here. I want them to get their answers, but I'd rather write it once, or better yet have some one else write it once.

[RustyLugNut]

I have only read the first post on this thread, from a quick skim, it seems have gone to O2 sensor talk....
but anyway, it would be great to have a "FAQ" part of the site, maybe wiki style. There are just so many people asking the same questions here. I want them to get their answers, but I'd rather write it once, or better yet have some one else write it once.

The FAQ is long overdue. But who writes it? There are a lot of erroneous ideas floating around.

[Owen_]

The FAQ is long overdue. But who writes it? There are a lot of erroneous ideas floating around.

I'd be happy to write a good deal of basic stuff.

What about a "wiki" FAQ that can only be edited by forum members who have posted some number of times or more. Additionally a easy way to ban people from editing would be necessary.
I guess I would likely not make the cut for minimum number of posts.... but i guess i could get it up by posting lots of links to Water for Gas

[RustyLugNut]

I'd be happy to write a good deal of basic stuff.

What about a "wiki" FAQ that can only be edited by forum members who have posted some number of times or more. Additionally a easy way to ban people from editing would be necessary.
I guess I would likely not make the cut for minimum number of posts.... but i guess i could get it up by posting lots of links to Water for Gas

The number of posts a person has put up, has nothing to do with their qualification as a poster. There are many erroneous ideas floating around this forum with many members parroting and propagating the errors resulting in the error becoming "gospel". Anyone can declare themselves a "guru" and garner some support from "followers" - and yet be utterly inept in science/technology.