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Thread: Non-Corrosive Electrolyte?

  1. Default Non-Corrosive Electrolyte?

    Recently, I have been using distilled white vinegar in my dry cell and it isn't pulling nearly enough amps for any decent production. My cell is 13 plates set up as "+NNNNN-NNNNN+". I don't like the idea of using a corrosive substance such as lye. What is a non-corrosive electrolyte, besides baking soda, that I could use? All suggestions are appreciated.

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    trisodium phosphate available at home improvement stores in the paint department is the only thing that comes to mind thats less toxic than Koh or Naoh. its the main ingrediant in automatic dishwashing detergent. its also used for cleaning outdoor decks. its still a poison but considered less toxic. Nothing beats Koh though. An intresting side note... if you add cobalt nitrate to the mix production improves greatly. its not too expensive and available through united nueclear

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    You may also want to try lime Koolade.You might have to remove a netural, but it does work. I tried 12 packs in a quart of water.

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    using any thing other than standard KOH +NaOH, results in some side effect, wierd gases put out, degrades into something, as toxic ,or worse. also unknown/unpredictable/ unstable, quality/quantity of actual HHO gas production. experimentation is great, but serious tests all seem to point back to the standard.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoover1 View Post
    using any thing other than standard KOH +NaOH, results in some side effect, wierd gases put out, degrades into something, as toxic ,or worse. also unknown/unpredictable/ unstable, quality/quantity of actual HHO gas production. experimentation is great, but serious tests all seem to point back to the standard.
    Not so. In the past my chemical of choice to be used as an electrolyte has been anhydrous NaSO4, because not only does it readily ionises in water into sodium and sulphate ions, and plays no part in reacting at the electrodes, but it is also very safe to handle. And being a mother with a young child safety is always an issue.

    Potassium Hydroxide is the very best electrolyte in terms of its tendency to more readily ionise in water, but as we all know is quite caustic and so require greater handling care.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrahday View Post
    Not so. In the past my chemical of choice to be used as an electrolyte has been anhydrous NaSO4, because not only does it readily ionises in water into sodium and sulphate ions, and plays no part in reacting at the electrodes, but it is also very safe to handle. And being a mother with a young child safety is always an issue.

    Potassium Hydroxide is the very best electrolyte in terms of its tendency to more readily ionise in water, but as we all know is quite caustic and so require greater handling care.
    Farrahday, I assume this is a Acid. What concentration is best? If you could estimate how does it stack up to KOH in percentages?
    When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius.
    When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot."

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Jacques View Post
    Farrahday, I assume this is a Acid. What concentration is best? If you could estimate how does it stack up to KOH in percentages?
    No, it's an alkaline. I only use the stuff on occasions when needs be. Whenever possible I prefer to design my cells so that I get the required results from straight tap water.

    Everything comes at a cost, and not many people realise it, but there is a perceivable cost to overall efficiency when using an electrolyte as opposed to plain water, so the less additive you can get away with the better. I use NaSO4 just to dope cells that I want to give slightly more current, so have never saturated the water with this compound. If I used KOH, I would need less of this compound per given volume of water than when using NaSO4, for any given current, but it's all really academic as I never use any great amount.

    Do I take it that many of you folk are simply doping the cell with a given percentage of electrolytic compound... if so, why?

    The logical thing to do is to dope the cell with just enough electrolytic compound to provide the required current draw only, and do away with the PWM. If need be use an thermostat to automatically cut off the power supply to the electrolyser if the electrolytic solution gets too hot.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

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    I have no experience with any cell performing will with zero electrolyte. My experience is not all tap water is equal. So while some can be very conductive others are not at all. I use RODI water which is basically not conductive at all. I would like to no how you build cells that work with zero electrolyte?


    I do agree that tailoring the electrolyte to your cell is best. I think doing that when the cell is cold, then you get desired amps, but as the cell warms the PWM keeps it where you want it. That way the performance is close to the same through out it's operation.


    A lot of folk do like to run a maximum electrolyte concentration for KOH that's 28%. So yeah, knowing the maximum productive concentration of NaSO4 could be useful. Why they do this is has to do with best conductivity... But i have not seen the cost to efficiency when using stronger electrolyte when testing the brute force ability of a cell. Mind you most folks build their cell to run at these high concentrations.

    I want to experiment with a variable PWM that follow engine RPM so it increases output as RPM raise so max concentration is good for this also.
    Last edited by Roland Jacques; 12-06-2010 at 01:22 PM.
    When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius.
    When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roland Jacques View Post
    I have no experience with any cell performing will with zero electrolyte.
    It all revolves around Ohms law, I= V/R. Increasing the electrode surface area and reducing the distance between electrodes are two ways of increasing the current for any given voltage. This can then be further enhanced by adding cells in parallel to the original set up. Obviously there will be design constraints as to how far you can take this approach before you need to dope the cell with an ionic compound to get the required current, but doping the cell should be the last measure.

    I'm not saying that there is not a need for electrolytes, in standard Faraday Electrolysers there certainly is, it's just that you do not need to max out the concentration. Remember that the cations and anions of a preferred electrolyte do not take part in the reactions at the electrodes, but they are still drawn to them. What do you think happens to them? Well, they can polarise the electrodes, and this is one way that non-reactive electrolytes reduce efficiency of a given cell.

    Mind you, I think I probably have a very different approach to this science than many here, as the limitations of standard Faraday Electrolysers as performance boosters has never really appealed to me. Inspired by the work of Puharich and Meyer, I've been looking at ways of surpassing Faraday by utilising a combination of other methods and mechanisms, which has involved much in-depth study of the electrochemical reactions occurring.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

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    Farrah, The search for an ideal electrolyte in my case has nothing to do with increasing current or its caustic effects on things. It has to do with the type of gas that is produced. People tend to forget that we are dealing with a computer in the current ICE that has limits. My aim is to find methods to get to the limits (leanest possible) of the current programing and maintain it there without using any additional electronics. (EFFIE etc) This can be down by controlling the type, and quantity of gas that is produced. Very small changes seam to make a big difference in my testing. I am not a chemist and all of this is way above my pay rate but I try and make up for that with long hours and lots of testing. Doping the electrolyte can yield much larger gains regardless of the type of reactor. This does not mean you shouldn't strive to build the most efficient reactor. The formula is power in resulting in what looks like more power out when actually it is not, just a more efficient use of the same power.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

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