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Thread: Non-Corrosive Electrolyte?

  1. #21

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    Lots of things to consider and the bubbler is actually almost as complex as the reactor itself.
    Yep, the thing I've found is that the idea and design stage is quite easy compared to the often unanticipated problems and complications that arise in actually constructing a working model.

    Regarding freezing, I should imagine that dry cells are much more prone to problems due to their design. I used ordinary car anti-freeze in a wet cell I employed for a time, with seemingly no ill-effects.

    I have to consider this with my new designs, but due to the fact that I will be employing cavitation and plasma discharges, I'm reluctant to use additives which under these conditions may just react unpredictably.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

  2. Default

    Regarding freezing, I should imagine that dry cells are much more prone to problems due to their design. I used ordinary car anti-freeze in a wet cell I employed for a time, with seemingly no ill-effects.

    I have to consider this with my new designs, but due to the fact that I will be employing cavitation and plasma discharges, I'm reluctant to use additives which under these conditions may just react unpredictably.
    Surprisingly I have found no difference between "dry cells" and "wet cells" (I hate those terms) except the "dry cell" thaws out much faster. I have tested both and with the right concentration of electrolyte things only get slushy. The "dry cell" starts producing more gas faster at least in my testing and design. I am sure with different designs the opposite could be true.

    Cavitation and plasma discharges are above my pay rate at the moment but as far as doping the bubbler, I doubt there will be any difference. Now electrolyte that is a different story and I would have to agree with you on that.

    I have been following the development of the use of magnets which I have been using in my system as filters and gas conditioners for some time. I believe that the proper placement of strong permanent magnets would and based on testing done by others, does enhance the production of HHO. I also see how it can work as a pump increasing the circulation also increasing production. Testing by others is going on at this moment. Some tests I did in the past were not convulsive but I am going to have another look at things based on the current information which looks promising.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

  3. #23
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    On the topic of STEAM:

    With the right parameters, you won't produce a visibly detectable amount of STEAM from my latest experience. It's all about electrolyte concentration and overall cell design. I believe STEAM is caused by current leakage, improper current density (overdriving), plate spacing being too small and the ever-so-controversial electrolyte to water ratio.

    Here are some good parameters to try:

    .5 amps / sq. in current density
    1/4" or greater plate spacing
    no holes in your plates
    28% KOH in distilled or deionized water
    don't hook the system up to a vacuum line

    PWM or brute force it doesn't matter. I get ZERO STEAM.
    Last edited by Stevo; 12-13-2010 at 06:37 PM. Reason: changed 'water vapor' to steam

  4. #24

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    Here's the thing though Stevo, water vapour is a gas (H2Og) and it is invisible, so you won't see it. Only when it condenses into liquid form will it become visible. So you are not seeing water vapour.

    Aside from turning into gas when boiling at 100 deg C, water will vapourise at much lower temperatures when exposed to pressure reductions or indeed at altitude. And there will also be localised hotspots within the cell, whereby temperatures will be hot enough to vapoursie the water, but not producing enough heat to show throughout the solution.

    From what I can tell its not water vapour that is the problem anyway, but atomised liquid electrolyte solution that gets carried into the combustion chamber along with the gases.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrahday View Post
    Here's the thing though Stevo, water vapour is a gas (H2Og) and it is invisible, so you won't see it....

    From what I can tell its not water vapour that is the problem anyway, but atomised liquid electrolyte solution that gets carried into the combustion chamber along with the gases.
    Ok, so I got technical and changed "water vapor" to "steam" so not to confuse anyone. But seriously:

    Atomize: "The process whereby a bulk liquid is transformed into a multiplicity of small drops."

    Doesn't a hair spray bottle "atomize" liquid? Somehow we can still see this in the air. How could liquid electrolyte be any different in this respect?

  6. #26

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    Atomize: "The process whereby a bulk liquid is transformed into a multiplicity of small drops."

    Doesn't a hair spray bottle "atomize" liquid? Somehow we can still see this in the air. How could liquid electrolyte be any different in this respect?
    Yes it does, and no, it's not different! This is exactly what I'm suggesting you are getting, and why there is still electrolyte getting to the engine.

    Some confusion of terms here I think. Water vapour and steam are two terms for the same thing - water gas, or water in gaseous state. As such, you can't see either. But often 'steam' is incorrectly used to describe the visible mist which is the gas condensing into liquid form.

    An electrolyser will be like a kettle to a certain extent, in that as the water boils off it turns into an invisible gas, but once it starts to cool (which is very quickly in ambient air) it condenses to form a mist, or condensation on a cool surface, both of which we can see. That is, what you see coming out of a kettle is not the gas (water vapour or steam), but liquid water due to the gas cooling and so changing phase. However, this accounts for how water might reach ther combustion chamber, but not the electrolyte, which can only reach the combustion chamber as atomised (liquid) solution.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farrahday View Post
    Yes it does, and no, it's not different! This is exactly what I'm suggesting you are getting, and why there is still electrolyte getting to the engine.

    Some confusion of terms here I think. Water vapour and steam are two terms for the same thing - water gas, or water in gaseous state. As such, you can't see either. But often 'steam' is incorrectly used to describe the visible mist which is the gas condensing into liquid form.

    An electrolyser will be like a kettle to a certain extent, in that as the water boils off it turns into an invisible gas, but once it starts to cool (which is very quickly in ambient air) it condenses to form a mist, or condensation on a cool surface, both of which we can see. That is, what you see coming out of a kettle is not the gas (water vapour or steam), but liquid water due to the gas cooling and so changing phase. However, this accounts for how water might reach ther combustion chamber, but not the electrolyte, which can only reach the combustion chamber as atomised (liquid) solution.
    Wow, just wow.

  8. #28

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    My electrolizer starts emitting vapor clouds within 30 seconds of starting. And by the way, my cells run cool. I have always postulated that this vapor cloud was the result of the "mechanical" action of the gas bubbling through the electrolyte then those bubbles popping within the electrolizer. All very similar to the steamless (sometime called cool mist) vaporizers they sell in drug stores.
    1991 Plymouth Acclaim 3L V6.
    1 dry cells with nineteen 6"x8" 316L ss plates, driven by constant current PWM set at 35 amps (13.3V at PWM). 28% KOH electrolyte. Total measured output 2.5 lpm. Mileage went from 18 to 26 mpg, all city driving (44% increase). EFIE set at .370 and I still need to play with ignition timing.

  9. #29
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    All I have to do is drop my KOH concentration down to ~10% and instantly I get [insert whatever you want to call it here] coming from the output of the bubbler in my system. Raise it back to 28% and SHABAAAM the [insert whatever you want to call it here] is gone. Forgot to mention that I sprinkled some magical fairy dust in there too which probably helped out a bit too.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by astrocady View Post
    My electrolizer starts emitting vapor clouds within 30 seconds of starting. And by the way, my cells run cool. I have always postulated that this vapor cloud was the result of the "mechanical" action of the gas bubbling through the electrolyte then those bubbles popping within the electrolizer. All very similar to the steamless (sometime called cool mist) vaporizers they sell in drug stores.
    I think this is likely a very good explanation, because any water boiling off due to localised hotspots or even just evaporating due air currents and pressure variations will be only pure water vapour and hence even if this reaches the combustion chamber it won't cause the corrosion were are seeing.

    Only tiny airbourne droplets of the electrolytic solution as a whole (H2O + K+ & OH-) that are carried along with the gases can possibly cause the corrosion in the engine.
    Farrah

    It's what you learn after you think you know it all that really counts!

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