Hexavalent Chromium

[fuelcatalyst]

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00058.html

BTW: This is not from a cell for HHO production, (so the recomendation not to use a stainless anode is for a different process where other suitable anode material may be available). I put this here to confirm that the SS anode does appear to produce Cr+6.

"I spoke to my chemist friends and they say they would not use
stainless as an anode - in industry hexavalent chromium is called "chrome 6".....

......I rather doubt much of the small amount of Cr in the anode would even form Cr(VI) compounds; Mark reports a greenish colour, which is typical of Cr(III) salts in solution (and, incidentally, also characteristic of Fe salts, and Fe is present here in much higher amounts) whereas Cr(VI) salts are yellow or orange/red. Cr(III) salts are not especially dangerous - and are even essential to support life (RDA is I think 25ug/day).

Even if there were small amounts of Cr(VI) in the solution, it is unlikely to get into the hobbyist unless he drinks it, or boils it and breathes the vapour - and the studies show that it is mainly breathing it into the lungs which is dangerous.''


Preliminary conclusions from these unverified snippets from the internet: Cr(VI) is produced by the stainless anode, (which makes sense). Cr(VI) salts are in fact yellow or orange/red. Risk is low unless Cr(VI) laden electrolyte boils in an unveltilated area.

[IM2L844]

fuelcatalyst, you seem to have allowed an obsessive/compulsive disorder to attach itself to this topic.

[fuelcatalyst]

I Think I now have learned enough to draw some preliminary conclusions.

#1 316L Stainless seems the best material, (most cost effective as pure nickel would likely be better), for cell plates at this point in HHO generator development.

#2 Some Cr+6 is generated by the SS anode, (very little from 316L, [likely more Cr+6 from lower grades of SS]).

#3 KOH seems like the best electrolyte, (at this point in the state of current development) for HHO production; solution has a very high pH (likely over 12), which cannnot be neutralized safely without significant dilution or a significant and dangerous acid - base reaction leading to much more, (VOLUME OF LIQUID), hazardous liquid to dispose of due to the needed dilution of the KOH prior to neutralization.

#4 Cr+6 is a "telltale" yellow or orange/red, 316L plates (if properly prepared and if proper limits on amperage and corresponding internal cell heat levels are observed), do not deteriorate rapidly or cause significant Cr+6 laden sludge or high levels of Cr+6 in the electrolyte.

#5 The test kit for Cr+6 is very inexpensive!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there is no excuse to ignore the "elephant standing in the living room"!!!!!!

#6 Small quanties of KOH, (or other electrolyte solutions can be properly disposed of), at haz mat sites!!!! PLEASE DO THIS!

#6 Some industrial states with groundwater contamination of Cr+6, (like New Jersey for one), are considering much lower future threasholds for Cr+6 contamination.

[fuelcatalyst]

fuelcatalyst, you seem to have allowed an obsessive/compulsive disorder to attach itself to this topic.

You maybe right.

Sorry I put you folks through this, but I felt the need to check it out, since I'm going to use this fuel saving technology myself, (and my life's experinece is the devil is always in the details: especially if one ignores them).

Hopefully some new to HHO generation to catalyze IC engines, (as I am), will gain helpfull insights that the rest of you Big Guns already likely knew, and I had to find out in my own anal way.

Ignore is not a good plan, (IMHO), since this issue is not likely to go away with the HUGE growth of Gubment now obviously underway at all levels.

A good cell design that stays relatively cool and uses 316L is clearly not much of a problem if gloves are worn when handling the electrolyte, and proper disposal proceedures are followed.

Again sorry I publically tackled a touchie subject. I could have done this privately and kept my findings private.

I chose not to, and have no regrets as I think there is value in knowledge.

[Philldpapill]

No, no, no... You're right to post this. This thread is a fairly concise resource for the topic. Some threads drag on and on for over 80 pages, and nothing useful is ever pulled out of the poster. I'm not going to name names, but usually these kinds of threads originate from the caribbean...

There is a pretty good amount of info in this thread, so if someone is concerned with Cr(VI), they can read this, and make a decision of their own.

Good work!

[fuelcatalyst]

No, no, no... You're right to post this. This thread is a fairly concise resource for the topic. Some threads drag on and on for over 80 pages, and nothing useful is ever pulled out of the poster. I'm not going to name names, but usually these kinds of threads originate from the caribbean...

There is a pretty good amount of info in this thread, so if someone is concerned with Cr(VI), they can read this, and make a decision of their own.

Good work!

Thank you, that is exactly what I intended.

[IM2L844]

Nevermind me. I was just joking around, but I know, because my wife constantly reminds me, I'm not nearly as funny as I think I am.

All joking aside, I really think you've provided a lot of good and useful information.

[fuelcatalyst]

Nevermind me. I was just joking around, but I know, because my wife constantly reminds me, I'm not nearly as funny as I think I am.

All joking aside, I really think you've provided a lot of good and useful information.

Thanks.

I have confirmed my initial instincts with this preliminary research (that I will continue) and now need to carefully produce some used KOH electrolyte after some run time with 316L plates in a commercial dry cell I will purchase and test myself.

That is the only way to know for sure at this stage of HHO generator development due to the interests in this controversy that stack up on both sides and restrict the impartial information I have searched for.

I hope someone who already has some used KOH electrolyte from 316L plates could purchase the inexpensive test kit and do some testing and post their results. That said: I would encourage them to take steps to islotate their disclosure from their screen name (or real name) they now use as they will likely be attacked by the polarized interests in this matter, (as I have clearly observed in my preliminary research).

This issue is a big one due to the "perfect storm" toxic mixture of ingredients: ever present and growing environmentalist pressure and their endless desire to control all of us; Hollywierd exposure; and capitalist competition. What a nasty combination!!!!

Like politics in this politically charged world we now live in, the available public domain information is both skewed and unreliable.

Non controversial (preliminary) facts I have significant confidence in: 316L stainless does have 16-18% Chromium content, and eloctrolysis most likely produces some Chrome+6, (as electrons are clearly taken from the stainless anode with some sacrifice of material into the KOH solution to form some of this particular state of Chrome), that is clearly dangerous to ground water.

HHO end users, (as I intend to be), are exposed much less then those who build the HHO generators with stainless plates and test the limits of their generators.

Airborn Chrome+6 is by far the most dangerous form as it is taken into the lungs, and the stainless plates need to be prepared to become plates in a HHO cell. I hope all of you take great care to keep airborne particles from the stainless at a minimum in your personal environment.

If all end users are careful not to over heat the electrolyte, and dispose of it very carefully so it doesn't enter the water table this dosen't seem to be a huge issue due to the small amounts of liquid and small amounts of Cr(VI) in the solution.

[astrocady]

Thanks.

I hope someone who already has some used KOH electrolyte from 316L plates could purchase the inexpensive test kit and do some testing and post their results.

I thought I read in a post on this forum, some time ago, that those inexpensive test didn't work with a KOH solution. That to get valid results with our electrolyte you had to send it off to a laboratory, which is not inexpensive.

[fuelcatalyst]

I thought I read in a post on this forum, some time ago, that those inexpensive test didn't work with a KOH solution. That to get valid results with our electrolyte you had to send it off to a laboratory, which is not inexpensive.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread....light=fructose

#18 02-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Shnerdly
Guest Posts: n/a



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-Hack!
There are small test kits you can buy for $21 that test for Cr(VI) http://www.hach.com/hc/search.produc...%3BL,+50+tests These are well within the realm of affordability for the average garage experimenter. While it wont test the gases coming out of the tail pipe, you could easily collect the water dripping from it to test.

I called the company in the above link and spoke to one of their "Technical People" named Kevin. He assured me that this kit will test specifically for CR+6. He said it will NOT detect other kinds of Chromium, only hexavalent.

I placed the order and should receive it in a couple of days.

The cost was 21.09 + 9.95 shipping and 1.42 tax. It does 50 tests. Thats only $0.65 per test. Definitely affordable.

I'll post again when the kit gets here.





Shnerdly is no longer a member here, so he didn't return to post results.

If you wish to test your electrolyte, you could call and confirm what the above post says about the test (prior to purchase) which seems prudent.

If the above post is accurate; the test, (less then $35.00 with shipping), can test 50 different times so it works out to less then $1.00 per test.

If you use KOH with a 316L anode, (I see that you do use this when I looked at your signature), you should not have very much chrome+6 in solution (unless you have overstressed the plates with a lot of amps), but you will likely have some trace amounts due to the anode putting some of the 16% to 18% Cr into the KOH solution, (with 6 too few electrons).

I'm not sure what reaction, (gas), you would get from sugar into a high pH electrolyte, (so use a very VERY small amount of the solution with caustic chemical resistent gloves, protective eyeware and clothing and plenty of ventalation and a breathing mask/filter if you chose to experiment with sugar reduction).

The paper I found from the Chicago conference in March 2007 talks about fructose from honey, (but that may have been to create a touchie feely paper for the environmentalists). Fructose from corn syrup should be a similar molecular structure. Sucrose from cane sugar was almost as effective.

I hope ya decide to follow through. Good luck!

It will take some time for me to preform this same test as I don't own the system you have (yet).

Ignoring this elephant will eventualy be a big problem.

Hach Company info:

http://www.hach.com/hc/static.templa...T09QkVReA==%7C

Hach Company
P.O. Box 389
Loveland, Colorado
80539-0389
Phone: 800-227-4224
Fax: 970-669-2932

Product/Sales Support
For general information, customer assistance with product or ordering questions, or technical support, call 800-227-4224.

TO ORDER TEST KIT:

http://www.hach.com/hc/search.produc...%3BL,+50+tests