Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: Good News & Bad News....

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988

    Unhappy Good News & Bad News....

    The good news is that I'm making lots of gas... The bad news is that very little of it seems to be getting to the engine. I was outside this evening dinkin' around with the system, topping off the distilled water and chasing down a couple small leaks when I decided to do an impromptu output measurement. I added an extension onto the output hose that goes to the air intake and went to get a jug of water so I could eyeball the bubbles produced by the combined output of all four e-lyzers. I set the engine at 1200rpm and dialed in 100 amps on the gauge. The units were crankin', blowing gas and foam into the bubblers like crazy. I let it sit at high idle like this for a solid ten minutes to bring the system up to operating temperature (I thought). I reached over to the nearest unit to feel the plate edges for warmth and received an uncomfortable 100amp tickle on the fingertips for my reward...oooops! I turned the unit off and felt again, no perceptible difference from the 63 deg. air temp. I then felt everything I could reach, connections, fittings, hoses, more plate edges sides and tops, ambient- all of it. I flip the switch back on and give it a couple minutes to regain whatever small warmth it might have had and wander back to the engine bay to stick the end of the hose into the water jug to see the pretty bubbles and WHOA! There is a visible, albeit cold fog coming from the tube. This can not be! Not with MY system of bubbler's! So, cursing my fate, I stick the hose into the water and and observe what looks to be about maybe 1 lpm of gas. Words cannot adequately describe the level of dissapointment I felt. This weekend I am pulling it down and going over everything with a fine toothed comb, and that includes water-pressure testing the delivery hose from the truck bed to the engine bay. Anybody got any ideas or theories?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Bradenton, Florida
    Posts
    201
    I feel you pain! Doesn't make sence. Hopefully it'll be something easy to find and easy to fix :-)

    Good luck!
    1991 Plymouth Acclaim 3L V6.
    1 dry cells with nineteen 6"x8" 316L ss plates, driven by constant current PWM set at 35 amps (13.3V at PWM). 28% KOH electrolyte. Total measured output 2.5 lpm. Mileage went from 18 to 26 mpg, all city driving (44% increase). EFIE set at .370 and I still need to play with ignition timing.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    266
    Bio,

    If you are producing a lot of gas at the generator & very little at the engine inlet port you have a leak.
    You said you water tested the components, where your bubbles filled with water at the time of testing?
    It could be a hose not sealing right, or a clamp that may be needed, or a barb with a seal leak (I had a barb with a pinhole leak which dropped my final production to almost zero).
    step 1
    1st things first, treat it like a natural gas line. With the unit operational & a hose in water, spray everything with a soapy water mix to see if you find a leak. If you see bubbles, bypass that area to test the final production, then remove & reseal the problem area.
    step 2
    I took it to the next level I plugged the engine hose off, attached a compressor quick disconnect end of the hose from the line out of my reservoir and did the above spaying with 5psi of air in the system (from the line out on the reservoir gas out line to the engine inlet). I did not need to test anything before as I saw no elyte leaks.

    If the leak is too small to be seen by step 1 the air pressure will reveal it in step 2. Be warned any barbs not installed right may blow their seal, so start with less pressure. My bubbler is stainless so I was able to weld it to the barb.

    Good luck!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Andy
    HHOSportTrac
    21 Plate 3" X 7" KOH Dry Cell

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988
    Thanks guys- sound advice, all of it... I have found that using the zip-ties is probably not the greatest idea, they tend to pucker the tubing up at the area immediately under the pass-through because of its (necessarily) thicker, flatter and stiffer construction. This makes a tiny triangular gap that leaks nicely, but goes away when the zip tie is removed. I am going to find a source for the proper size of those OEM automotive hose clamps that you open by squeezing the two little tabs that stick up with a pair of pliers, they have more than enough clamping pressure for our application and are perfectly round.

    Koya- to answer your question, yes I'm still using the PVC screw in plug caps, but was able to get the main ones to seal well enough with some teflon tape. I did the soapy water test one time already- that's how I found the first batch of leaks but I was pouring it from a jug... Wasteful and messy, I like the idea of spraying much better. --"No honey, I have no idea what happened to that bottle of Windex... Maybe we used it all?"
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #5
    I also had this issue when going throw a 2nd bubbler.
    It doesn't seem to have ANY leaks but the production is cut in 1/2 or so.
    Going right from cell to a water jug i get that pretty 2lmp or so on 14v.
    Then i put it into my 2nd bubbler, and 1lmp???
    Check all the spots it could be leaking, and nothing?

    My guess is, it is building up pressure too slowly and there is super fine leaks all over the place?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    954
    Quote Originally Posted by viper_1986_1986 View Post
    I also had this issue when going throw a 2nd bubbler.
    It doesn't seem to have ANY leaks but the production is cut in 1/2 or so.
    Going right from cell to a water jug i get that pretty 2lmp or so on 14v.
    Then i put it into my 2nd bubbler, and 1lmp???
    Check all the spots it could be leaking, and nothing?

    My guess is, it is building up pressure too slowly and there is super fine leaks all over the place?
    Trust me on one thing. Hydrogen will leak when nothing else will. Run your cell nonstop for 2 weeks then check around your fittings for white build up. It will take quite some time to show up. The white build up is KOH. It is escaping with the hydrogen as it is escaping even the smallest cracks. Mostly around the threads in your fittings.

    Larry
    2008 Nissan Frontier 4X4 Nismo. 12 MPG baseline with my normal commute and heavy stop and go daily driving. Generator installed and working on 3/29/2009

    Up to 14.5 MPG with no enhancers. Still testing the effects of lots of HHO and no electronic enhancers.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988
    Man, you're not kidding... Since I posted initially on this thread I have discovered no less than NINE leaks! Three of them were major- you could actually hear them over the background noise if you got close enough... I think there are probably still some more yet to be discovered.
    Since we're on the subject, what seems to be working best for sealing up the threads? I'm using HDPE ends and (of course) nylon fittings. Has anyone run across anything that bonds well to these materials yet is resistant to KOH? I have been toying with the idea of a non-hardening butyl based caulk around the last couple of threads. There were only two small leaks (that I could find) at threaded fittings, the rest were all caused by unequal clamping forces of zip-ties at hose & barb connections.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Anchorage Ak
    Posts
    954
    Quote Originally Posted by BioFarmer93 View Post
    Man, you're not kidding... Since I posted initially on this thread I have discovered no less than NINE leaks! Three of them were major- you could actually hear them over the background noise if you got close enough... I think there are probably still some more yet to be discovered.
    Since we're on the subject, what seems to be working best for sealing up the threads? I'm using HDPE ends and (of course) nylon fittings. Has anyone run across anything that bonds well to these materials yet is resistant to KOH? I have been toying with the idea of a non-hardening butyl based caulk around the last couple of threads. There were only two small leaks (that I could find) at threaded fittings, the rest were all caused by unequal clamping forces of zip-ties at hose & barb connections.
    Nylon is very difficult to bond to. It can be bonded to well enough to seal but will not hold up to force. HDPE is almost like Teflon in that it is almost impossible to bond to. Teflon epoxy will bond to it but is very expensive and VERY nasty to use. It would bond both. My best suggestion for the fittings in HDPE is to use brass or stainless fittings instead of Nylon. The brass will turn black but is otherwide unaffected by KOH. The metal fittings will distort less than Nylon and seal better. Then use good white TFE pluming paste. It is really good stuff. It alsop helps if while threading the HDPE that you leave as least 5 threads on your tap outside the hole. That creates a smaller threaded hole and allows for tighter fittings. It only helps if you use metal fittings as the Nylon will just distort when getting them that tight. Also using good stainless worm gear hose clamps that are the smallest size you can fit over your hoses helps. They distort if they are too big and tightened too small. Good luck with the leaks. Hydrogen is very sneeky stuff. Like I said before. Just when you think everything is sealed tight you will be able to find more leaks over time just by looking for white build up at the connections.

    Larry
    2008 Nissan Frontier 4X4 Nismo. 12 MPG baseline with my normal commute and heavy stop and go daily driving. Generator installed and working on 3/29/2009

    Up to 14.5 MPG with no enhancers. Still testing the effects of lots of HHO and no electronic enhancers.

  9. #9
    would the hho convert back to water? Like as it gos through the water would that make it want to and be able to some how start to go back into h20. I read somewhere some while back, its not to stable and tries to go back and that runs to engine should be short? idk maybe?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988
    Hey PPC-
    Koya seems to be making it work just fine with a 19 foot hose from the bed of an F350 to the air intake, and now that most of my leaks are fixed I'm getting gas to the intake on my F350 with a 21 foot hose... (My truck is an '89- they were a tad longer then.) As a loose rule of thumb, if it's not sitting around for a while (storage) and is being used as it's being made, and not in the presence of any type of catalytic materials, then the rate of recombination occurring is minimal to the point of being difficult to measure.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •