Controversies about Ortho and Para H

[fuelcatalyst]

My first post was about a controversy about chrome +6 (that I didn't realize was such a big deal when I posted), was a sales issue between cell manufacturers using non stainless electrodes and those using stainless.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=6315

I determined that the issue for a user of HHO was small if care is taken to dispose of used electrolyte.

It is not small (as a sales issue) for some manufactures.

My reseach has turned up a few other matters that I wanted to post about.

I hope some experienced and knowledgeable experimenters/builders will comment.

[fuelcatalyst]

Some of the same manufacturers of HHO generators make claims about the "quality" of the HHO gas.

I have learned that dry cells with stainless 316L seem to function the best, and if properly designed use a fairly weak KOH solution and stay under 140 degrees F regardless of how long they run. They don't seem to need a PWM and produce decent amounts HHO gas if the design is efficient.

The manufactures who don't have very effiecient generators seem to claim a higher quality of gas, (not refering to steam content). They claim they have much more orthohydogen vs parahydrogen from their HHO generators. They claim that they prove this with a louder explosion from generated HHO gas.

Since I have been unable to find evidence of the HHO gas being analyzed via mass spectrometry this appears to be sales hype garbage.

At room temps ortho H is 75% and para H is 25 % and you must get down to -423 F to get nearly all para H.

The non stainless guys say the ferric oxide/ chrome oxide/ nickel traces catalyze the ortho to para fall in energy. That seems hard to believe as well.

[fuelcatalyst]

Some make claims about monatomic H and O instead of diatomic H and O. That also seems unlikely that very much monatomic gas exists either.

George Wisemen claims there is a elevated form of water vapor/gas in the mix as well which seems unlikely.

Has HHO ever been analyzed so the exact breakdowns are known?

[astrocady]

These are very good questions and I await comments from our resident experts.

To throw another component into the mix, I have heard some manufacturers claim their PWMs make better gas that others. And other claim the quality of gas decreases if you drive the cell to hard.

I have only recently started doing some "pop" tests, and I'm not really sure how relivant they are, at least to MPG gains. To keep things as "scientific" as I can, I got a small liquor bottle (like the kind they sell on airlines). It is small enough to be safe, I can hold the neck of the bottle in a pair of vice grips so my hand doesn't muffle the sound, and it small enough to fill quickly so i know it is always full.

I have noticed a difference in sharpness of the retort between a couple of systems, but have not been able yet to determine why. It's an ongoing test that I don't know will go anywhere.

[Roland Jacques]

This is something that interest me also, but i dont have much to add.

I do wonder if it would a "good test" just to measure the heat output from burning the different HHO gases side by side?

Maybe compare 1 LPM (or 100 watts input) from a nickle Plate cell vs a SS plate cell. Or any other configuration you what to compare.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...-para-hydrogen

[plasma]

I read that "Ortho-Hydrogen is much more explosive than Para-Hydrogen" (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1164793) so I would presume it is more desireable.

[Roland Jacques]

I read that "Ortho-Hydrogen is much more explosive than Para-Hydrogen" (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1164793) so I would presume it is more desireable.

Great link,
This part was very interesting to me. but im not sure what MHD stands for?

"What makes Hydrogen so special in MHD is the fact that it possesses two distinctive forms; Para-Hydrogen and Ortho-Hydrogen. This occurs when the electron is (spinning or twisting) in the opposite direction as the nucleus is called Para. When the electron is spinning in the same direction as the nucleus is called Ortho. Can you guess how we change from one state to another? You got it, a magnetic field. The research conducted by Ruskin found that the conversion of Hydrogen from Para to Ortho was done by magnetic means."

[Roland Jacques]

fuelcatalyst
Do you have a link to the guys claiming higher quality HHO?

[Drafty-01]

Sounds like smoke & mirrors to me - but following this thread as it sounds kind of interesting.

[Philldpapill]

Drafty - I was just about to post the exact same thing - Smoke and Mirrors.

Para vs. Ortho is the same thing on the macro scale. The only concern anyone should have about it is if you are interested in the quantum effects of it. For our purposes, I'm 99.9999999% sure it means nothing. When you're talking about simple combustion reactions, Hydrogen is Hydrogen is Hydrogen is Hydrogen... Anyone who says otherwise more than likely has a $$$ stake in it one way or another.