Volumetric Discrepancies

[ElectroNut]

Hey all,

My name is Dave, I'm an ex-automotive mechanic, and I am very interested in building an HHO cell for my car. However, I have a question that has been bugging me for the longest time. I'll do my best to explain it and I hope you can answer it for me.

Pretend, for instance, that your engine has a displacement of 3.0 liters. In a four-stroke engine, it takes two revolutions of the crankshaft to complete a cycle. Each cycle intakes the displacement of the engine, so this engine would intake 3.0 liters for every two turns of the crankshaft.

The typical 20A HHO cell produces between 1 and 5 liters of HHO per minute. I have not tested this myself, but these figures I have taken as an average of all the research I have done on the subject.

Now, bear with me a bit. Pretend you're cruising down the highway and your engine is at a steady 2000 RPM. This means that the engine crankshaft is revolving 2000 times each minute. We know that for every two turns of the crankshaft the engine sucks in its displacement's worth of air. Thus, this engine sucks in 3.0 liters of air 1000 times a minute when it's spinning at 2000 RPM. This amounts to a total of 3000 liters per minute of engine intake. Do you follow?

Now let us consider the best-case scenario: an HHO cell that produces 5 liters per minute. For each minute the engine is running, it is sucking in 3000 liters of air and 5 liters of HHO gas. That brings the intake concentration of HHO to 0.17% in the intake air.

Yes, 0.17%. That's 1.7 parts per thousand. Furthermore, a third of the HHO is just plain ol' oxygen anyway.

What gives? How on earth can adding less than two-tenths of a percent of anything into the intake give a fuel-efficiency increase of "at least 15%" as claimed on conservative sites and "increase to 60mpg" as claimed on others?

As they say, sugar pills have been known to cure headaches. Please, correct me if I'm wrong! I am genuinely interested in putting an HHO cell on my vehicle, but I want to make sure I'm not wasting my money. Don't take this the wrong way - my last intention is to make a fuss here. Can anyone help me? What have I done wrong?

Thanks for your understanding,

Dave H.

[lhazleton]

Dave,
You need to do a bit research on this. Hydroxy doesn't replace any of the gasoline vapors; it enhances it. The implosion of the HHO/gasoline mix is a much cooler and faster burn. Timing can be retarded, sensors tricked, etc.. to allow the ECU to give a shorter pulse to the injectors, resulting in a lean-burn situation. With the HHO introduction, running lean is fine as the mix burns much cooler. My EGT dropped an average of 100 deg. F. after installing my reactor.
Like I said, do lots of research first. There's no such thing as a reactor putting out 5LPM @ 20 amps. The rule of thumb for HHO output is 1/2 Liter per engine displacement liter. My 4.0L gets 2LPM, etc..
Lee

[fuelcatalyst]

Hey Dave,

My first look at this issue came to the same hurdle you put forth.

Mr Hazelton's reply is spot on.

The H2 gas is a catalyst for the ICE (which is a very inefficient user of fuel). The most efficient ICE is less then 1/3 efficient so a relatively small gain in burn efficiency of the 2/3 wasted fuel nets a large potential change in the end result.

As to 20 amps for 5 liters of HHO: let me know if you find one ( I know there are lots of claims) I have been testing different commercial generators and 1.5 liters a minute out of 20 amps at a low stable temp with very little steam is about all I can find, (WO a PWM).

[RustyLugNut]

You do have to dig a bit deeper to understand the interactions during combustion.

The replies have not been necessarily correct, but they do bring out the main points of augmented combustion.

The presence of relatively small amounts of hydrogen help greatly in the thermal breakdown phase of the long chain fuels. Many variables must be accounted for but it ends up with two main results:

Accelerated heat release and extended lean combustion.

The principles are there, now we need to apply them.

That is what most of us are working towards on this forum - effective application.

[rcflyn]

Another thing to keep in mind, There is No engine that is 100% Fuel Efficient.
No matter how LITTLE Gasoline you put through your engine, a small amount is still Unburnt. That is in part what the Catalytic converter does (I know, it does MORE than that, but for this discussion). But, if you put TOO Little Fuel into the engine, BAD things happen. So there's got to be a Happy Medium for the engine to operate correctly, AND pump out as little UNBURNT Fuel as possible.

Going on what lhalzelton stated, by introducing even a MINUTE amount of HHO, the Hydrogen is a Faster Burning Gas. It Burns More complete, Thus helping to burn up the UNBURNT Gasoline. Hook a Reactor up to your car. Leave the Reactor OFF. Go SMELL the Exhaust coming out of your Exhaust Pipe. Even the Cleanest burning of cars STILL has that NASTY gasoline smell to it. Now, you stated you were a mechanic, so you can probably relate to the Carburetor days. Do you remember HOW BAD that Exhaust smelled compared to todays E.F.I. Cars? Ok, NOW, go turn your Reactor on, Let it run a few minutes, then go smell your exhaust again. That "GAS" Smell is practically nonexistant. Because the HHO is Helping the Engine BURN the excess Gasoline that otherwise would have remained unburnt until it hit the catalytic converter. By BURNING all the Gas, you've got a more fuel effecient car, and you'll see the net gains... But, it comes at a Price. Lots of sensors to trick. Lots of gadgets to buy... But, it's ALL LOTS of fun...

[Drafty-01]

Just a small point in the initial statement; you mentioned "cruising down the highway ~ 2000rpm ~ 3000litres of air per minute".
This assumes that you have floored it, and the air inlet system is 100% efficient. Neither of these things would be the case I think. Particularly if your engine is a gas powered one, you would have the throttle just a little bit open, so your 3000 litres per minute might be reduced to only 5-10%.

Just my 0.02 worth.

Cheers,
Martin.

[fuelcatalyst]

Just a small point in the initial statement; you mentioned "cruising down the highway ~ 2000rpm ~ 3000litres of air per minute".
This assumes that you have floored it, and the air inlet system is 100% efficient. Neither of these things would be the case I think. Particularly if your engine is a gas powered one, you would have the throttle just a little bit open, so your 3000 litres per minute might be reduced to only 5-10%.

Just my 0.02 worth.

Cheers,
Martin.

Hmmmmmm......

Sooooooooo ya think a 3L engine would be cruising on a 90% to 95% vacuum?

If the 3L 4 stroke engine with even compression in each cylinder is turning 2000 rpms 3000 liters of gas are being processed.

Period.

Note: if ya had it "floored" the gas inside the cylinders would be a richer mixture of gasoline or diesel

[Roland Jacques]

Hey all,





Yes, 0.17%. That's 1.7 parts per thousand. Furthermore, a third of the HHO is just plain ol' oxygen anyway.

.

Dave that is a good question IMO.

And like already mentioned 1.5 LPM is a more realistic number which even lowers you number.

Most papers iv seen written on this subject use much much higher amounts of H2. Not to say less does not work.

You can add some other factors to your calculations to make it a little easier to understand but you still end up with a a small percent. Here some other factors to think about.

1. Your engine has a VE volume efficiency factor, (the percent of Air That actually gets pulled into the engine. an average is about 85%
So 3000 LPM = about 2550 LPM if air.

2. 75% or so of that is nitrogen, Nitrogen is a neutral gas as far as thermal energy goes. (but the engine wont run without it)
So 2550 LPM = about 640 LPM of oxidising O2.

3. It would be difficult to figure out the percent of gasoline in a useful way. I'm to lazy to go there right now. actually i don't even think i can go there on my best day.
15 to 1 is what some engines try to run at. That's by weight. so you can start by figuring out what is the weight of 2550 litter of air is. Then you can divide that by 1500 to get your gasoline weight. maybe you can see where I'm going with this one.

maybe you can see that the pecentage is not as small as you thought it was.
Anyway it can work to better you MPG. But its not a slam dunk, tuning your engine is the key for success for most HHO boosting IMO.

[Bassman]

I just watched a tv show that was about a company removing old oil wells in the ocean. A diver was cutting the derick legs off so they could be removed. They said that the danger was that hydrogen and oxygen could create a bubble inside the pipe no larger then a tennis ball and if ignited could explode the pipe apart in the divers face. This was a large pipe and shows the amount of power that just a small amount could do in a small cylinder that is under compression.

[lhazleton]

Yeah, HHO is some nasty stuff when it blows.
I think almost everyone that builds reactors, myself included, has had fun filling bottles, balloons, etc. & lighting them. Loud & powerful!