Deep Confusion..

[BioFarmer93]

@ IM2L844- Rather than continue to ruthlessly hijack Coltabagar's thread with my questions, I remembered (too late) to try and observe proper forum etiquette. My apologies to Coltabagar.
So, you said-
"An electrochemical cell consists of the positive surface of one plate, the negative surface of another plate and the electrolyte between the two surfaces."

"A stack is a number of cells arranged in series with a connection to a positive external terminal at one end of the stack and a connection to a negative external terminal at the opposite end of the stack."


You have 20 of these:
1 amps = +|+(cell 1)-|+(cell 2)-|+(cell 3)-|+(cell 4)-|- = 45.6 milliliters for 13.8 watts

Based on this info, I would have to respectfully disagree and say that I have 4 of these:
+l+(cell1)-l-(cell2)+l+(cell3)-l-(cell4)+l+(cell5)-l-(cell6)+l+(cell7)-l-(cell8)+l+(cell9)-l-(cell10)+l+(cell11)-l-(cell12)+l+(cell13)-l-(cell14)+l+(cell15)-l-(cell16)+l+(cell17)-l-(cell18)-l-(cell19)+l+(cell20)-l-
-That is unless I have missed some subtle nuance which is fairly typical for me...

[BioFarmer93]

Hey Koya-
Yeah, I'm good now with the cell & stack concept, but now that I understand the meaning of the terminology it has forced me to look at my setup under those terms... By definition then, I am running 4 stacks of twenty cells with no neutral plates. At least that is what it looks like to me, UNLESS (and this is a little out of the box) you stipulate that since my units use no neutrals, they must be considered as being only a single cell in each stack. If that is the case then I suppose I would have a 4 cell 4 stack system.

[IM2L844]

Maybe I misunderstood how you have your system wired. I thought it was like this:
Positive External Terminal >----
---->+|+(reactor 1, cell 1)-|- (wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 2, cell 1)-|-(wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 3, cell 1)-|-(wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 4, cell 1)-|- >----Negative External Terminal

Positive External Terminal >----
---->+|+(reactor 1, cell 2)-|- (wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 2, cell 2)-|-(wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 3, cell 2)-|-(wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 4, cell 2)-|- >----Negative External Terminal

Positive External Terminal >----
---->+|+(reactor 1, cell 3)-|- (wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 2, cell 3)-|-(wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 3, cell 3)-|-(wire connection)>----
---->+|+(reactor 4, cell 3)-|- >----Negative External Terminal

...and so on for all 20 stacks where the cells are numbered 1 through 20 in each reactor. Even though they are in seperate housings (reactors) and only connected by wire, the cells are still connected in series and considered a stack of four cells. If you check the voltage of an individual cell you will read somewhere between 3 and 3.5 volts (maybe a little more or less, depending on your power source), but maybe I have misunderstood how you have them wired.

What you show above would have each and every cell directly connected, individually, to an external power source terminal and an external ground terminal. If this is the case you couldn't possibly have a more inefficient configuration and will read the full voltage of your power source at every individual cell when you check it.

[BioFarmer93]

Is that what I have here? (no sarcasm implied)
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment....3&d=1270397754
Because this is the way my current arrangement is... Since the connectors are physically ganged on a common conductor at each reactor, it's not actually correct to represent it graphically in the manner above, although what you have drawn above does come the closest yet to the actual arrangement I have used. Based on your explanation to me of what comprises a cell, and a stack, I think that technically I am running 4 stacks of 20 cells even though the reactors (1 complete stack) are series connected.

[myoldyourgold]

Yes. Bio what you have here is 20 parallel cells in a 4 stack series. This will give you 3.45 volts per cell the same as a 4 bipolar plate cell if the power supply is 13.8 volts. The voltage is the same as a 6 plate stack with 4 bipolar plates, commonly known as a 4 cell stack. This is over the 2 to 2.5 volt per cell, which has proven to be the best. Any thing over 2.5 volts seams to just create excess heat and very little more gas. The question is what amperage will there be across each cell. My understanding is that if you put 20 amps in you will only have 1 amp across each of the 20 parallel cells. To get 20 amps across each cell you would have to have 200 amps and that is considering the connections have no loss. Will the low amps and higher voltage solve the heat problem and still produce the same amount of gas per watt is my question?? Most brute force cell stacks are making gas with .5 amps per square inch of active area. I think some of the more experienced people in this forum can explain all of this a lot better than I can.

[BioFarmer93]

Thought so... The system typically runs at 8V split 4 ways for 2V per reactor at up to 140A.

[myoldyourgold]

Bio Sir, Could you tell us what the active surface area is of your cell. By that I mean the active area of one plate. At 8 volts and 140 amps what kind of production do you have? Is this in a vehicle or just on the bench? What type of cell is it, sealed or a wet cell? If it is a sealed cell does it have balance holes? This would help to understand your setup.

[IM2L844]

I think that technically I am running 4 stacks of 20 cells even though the reactors (1 complete stack) are series connected.

Technically, a "Stack" by definition, according to the electrochemistry dictionary at Ernest B. Yeager Center for Electrochemical Sciences (YCES), is "A series-coupled assembly of cells.

Stacks are amperage dividers. I'll bet, if you check your amperage passing through any single cell, it will be 1/20th of your total amperage. If you are running 140 amps, I will bet each cell will read around 7 amps. If it does, you have 20 parallel stacks of 4cells each.

If you want me to just let this go, I'll let it go. I don't want to be a prick about it. I don't want to force my opinion on you. The only reason I care one way or the other is because I want to help you be able to figure current efficiency (Faraday Efficiency) for your system and it's important to have the configuration correct in order to be able to do that. Otherwise, there is no way of knowing.

Let's use a hypothetical 8 volts and 100 amps.

If you have a total of 80 cells in 4 stacks a 100% efficient system should be producing 22.82 LPM with an MMW of 28.53 (not very realistic).

On the other hand, if you have a total of 80 cells in 20 stacks a 100% efficient system should be producing 4.564 LPM with an MMW of 5.71 (much more realistic).

Which one is closer to your actual results?

[BioFarmer93]

@ oldgold- this will start to get you up to speed on my stuff, also search "clflyguy" on youtube to see the install.
http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.ph...74&postcount=1

@2L8- Don't worry, you haven't ****ed me off yet, and the production looks to be completely normal compared to other systems I've seen on youtube, so I'd say that the 4.5lpm you calculated sounds about right since I haven't bothered to measure it yet. -And probably will not for a while because as I posted earlier this week I'll be pulling it down for upgrades soon. I think that perhaps my design is so old-school (I got the layout from a library book called "fuel from water" more than twenty years ago) that current definitions may not really be such a good fit in trying to describe it. It seems that you're working too hard trying to force the configuration to fit the stack model that everyone is so familiar with these days that only really applies to e-lyzers with neutral plates. You did look at the drawing in my previous post, right? Because no amount of interpolation can make that arrangement conform to a twenty stack concept, it's simply impossible. Twenty parallel cells per stack, four stacks series connected as per the diagram. 100 amps @ 8 volts- if stacks split amperage as you stated earlier, then that would mean 25amps per stack, right? I learned from that book that series connecting the e-lyzers splits voltage, so 8 volts split through 4 e-lyzers makes 2 volts apiece, right?

[myoldyourgold]

By definition of a stack I do not see 20 series coupled cells. I see 4 sets of 20 parallel cells connected in series. Is this just my not understanding the definition? I think you are right but I just can’t get my little gray cells to see it like that. I will keep working at it.

Bio parallel connected cells split amps so your amps are split by 20 in your setup that much is for sure. Nice looking set up.