Why HHO Cannot Work

[braddubya]

No one wants to defend this technology? I will not make any offensive comments.

[BioFarmer93]

OK Brad, I'll try to be civil to you just one time so you'll know that I'm capable of it. No one here feels the need to defend this tech because we're all using it and it's working for all of us (well, most of us- some of us are still fighting with our vehicles' ECU's.) Anyway, for those of us that have won the ECU battle, and especially we dieselheads, the results speak for themselves. As I stated in the first reponse to you, read the testimonials. Positive results are all over the 'net, and we are hardly the only BB out there where these results can be found. You are only going to catch a lot of flak here because of your stance on the tech. Buy or build your own unit, install it, measure before and after mileage, then come back. Until that time no one here is going to give you the time of day, especially to debate the theory of a tech that we have put into practice with positive results.

[braddubya]

Im just hoping to find someone on this forum who is interested in the scientific method who can explain the mechanism that allows these increases in MPG.

Testimonials mean nothing as there are many "Junk Sciences" (not claiming this is necessarily one of them) out there that provide testimonials as well. Look at astrology, psychics, faith healers, etc. They all are backed solely by testimonials.

EDIT: One other quick note. I like HHO I have built a generator before and its very fun. I am even interested in learning how to build better generators and possibly building a torch for welding. I am only trying to oppose the use of these in vehicles because logically it does not work, unless someone can show me otherwise.

[myoldyourgold]

I will have to admit there are some parts, but not all, of the technology which is not yet explainable in scientific or mathematical formula. That does not mean there isn't any scientific explanation. Some of us are working on a daily bases to find the answers and back it up with known science and scientific testing. If a new discovery is made you will surely hear about it. The fact that it works is proven without a doubt. This does not include the snake oil sellers trying to rob people, and there are many. I believe you need to start with proving to yourself that it works physically. If you have trouble in your testing come back and I am sure you will find lots of help. That is what mentors do here as a rule. You need to read my signature below and understand what it really means and then couple that with your understanding on what you have learned.

[FuzzyTomCat]

I think I might know who you are, and If I'm right, then I resent the hell out of you following me over here and being a troll. If you are not who I think you are and are just a random troll, I still resent the hell out of you. No one here feels like wasting keyboard strokes and time arguing with you for the sake of "discussion". It's been re-hashed so any times that unless you are willing to build a unit and see for yourself, I seriously doubt that anyone else on this board except another noob will respond to you. Your first post is so obviously designed to incite that it is laughably pathetic. Please feel free to read the testamonials before you are banned.


**Note To Admin** User braddubya is a TROLL **Please Ban**

Hi BioFarmer,

I totally understand your concerns ... but maybe ... or possibly we have a "Automotive Engineering Technology Student at MNSU" or even a graduate here. Just remember that all students are taught by academics that go strictly by older "MAINSTREAM" beliefs and very few teach cutting edge technologies such as privately owned laboratories or experimentalists doing "HANDS ON" work.

There are ground breaking discoveries happening right now with a "New" water-splitting catalyst that's been found http://www.physorg.com/news193055742.html it's just a matter of time now.

Regards,
FuzzyTomCat

[braddubya]

if your attempt is build one for torch, then you are half way there for vehicle application. If you can produce that flame from the result of your generator what makes you think it cannot do the ICE any good. I am not one to explain to you the logic how this works, I can only share what evey car and truck gas or diesel is doing with a system I build for them.

I dont doubt for a second that your units are producing HHO and that that HHO is being burned by the car. I doubt that the unit violates the laws of physics specifically the conservation of energy which it would have to to work. Unless there is some other reason which would need to be explained.

You said you build one. tells us the configuration? size plates, how many bipolar, what kind of output? If you have data to those question, then you have what it takes to apply it to your car.

I built a very small one out of household odds and ends. I want to build a larger dry cell to run a torch.

One of the demo I do when someone in a parking lot questions the process specially when the person questioning it, their car runs rough. I simply ask them if they would like a demo and then I park my 2009 F-150 next to theirs have them pop the hood as I do disconnect the supply hose from my unit and then feed their car with 2.5 lpm HHO.

This is not a valid demonstration as the HHO unit is being powered by your vehicle but pumping into another. In this case the car receiving the HHO is gaining energy but the car running the system is losing energy.

Get to know this process sleep thinking of a better way to make HHO for less amp, get up and build what you dreamed of then test it on your 45K truck. then come back and share with us your findings and we will help you fine tune it for gain.

you second is up.

The burden of proof is not on the skeptic. The default position is always disbelief until evidence is provided.


I like the attitude of this movement - trying to help with the oil crisis. I just dont think it works. If anyone can describe how it does im all ears and willing to admit my mistake.

[braddubya]

If these devices actually work then you have made the worlds first over unity device. In order for them to work you must be getting more output then input.

You could in fact then build a perpetual motion device. Have a engine running on HHO producing HHO that it feeds itself.

Thats where my disbelief comes from.

[astrocady]

The simple explanation of why HHO works...

The hydrogen gas burns very hot and very fast. When it is mixed with the intake air, hydrogen molecules are distributed through the combustion chamber. When ignition occurs, all the hydrogen burns instantaneously, which in turns ignites the gasoline. It's like having a thousand tiny spark plugs in the chamber, igniting all the gasoline at the same time.

The increase in performance comes from burning the gasoline that normally passes through the exhaust unburnt -- not from the power derived from burning the hydrogen.

[myoldyourgold]

The burden of proof is not on the skeptic. The default position is always disbelief until evidence is provided.


I like the attitude of this movement - trying to help with the oil crisis. I just don't think it works. If anyone can describe how it does im all ears and willing to admit my mistake.

Some people are blinded by there strong belief in what seems to be quite straight forward to them. 1 + 1 = 2. But others see it as 11 (eleven). There is no over unity here at least not known to me. There is a lot of science that is not totally understood in reference to electrolysis, for instance the fact that electrolyte is non ohmic thus causing a some what incalculable component in the process. This causes a big problem in the explanation of what is happening. There are many many more things with very complex and changing characteristics involved. I suggest you continue your research and understand what is really going on beside the power in and power out are equal or less. There is much more than that involved. You have made it only a foot off home plate. At the rate you are going you will never see a home run. Your skepticism is only demonstrating more and more your lack of knowledge on the subject. This I can see is going to be a waste of time and no body will want to feed someone who shows such lack of ability and want to learn. For this reason I will not make any further commit on this subject.

[Owen_]

Astrocady's comment is right on, but there is more to it.

First off if you were to add a little propane (or other flammable gas) to the intake you would get better fuel economy, even when you factor in the BTU's of the propane. Injectors are not perfect, and small droplets are formed, these don't completely burn in time to give all of the energy they have. This is an inefficiency that we are trying to improve. Hydrogen is much better at this than propane, as it burns much faster. Oxygen makes it even better.

Second supplemental hydrogen allows for a leaner burn, with out damaging the engine, or causing higher levels of NOx in the exhaust.

The biggest problem facing the HHO people; is the HHO snake oil salesmen. There are people out there saying a cell makes energy, which is obviously BS. People saying they have a 300% improvement in FE is BS. There is obviously a loss in energy from the alternator, so there really is a ideal size for an HHO cell. This needs more testing to determent the exact amount of HHO to maximize improvements, but this is different for every type of engine.

It is clear that a really efficient HHO cell is best, and big gains are not guaranteed.