What is the optimum active area of electrodes?

[koya1893]

I guess that is why someone thought I should start all over and be a "NEWBIE". One thing I must say, if you repeat yourself enough someone might actually listen or follow what you are saying.

[lhazleton]

Not in here, Ben!
Maybe Richard will be allowed back in & he can spread his bullsh1t around again. He loved repeating himself to anyone dumb enough to listen.

[borescopeit]

A good rule of thumb for plate area is 1/2 to 1 sq.in per volt. That,s plate area in the water. 1/16th gaskets.
wet cells are a waste of time and energy , they create too much heat.
Hope that helps. .....jesse

That is freaking stupid!
I do have 10" by 12" plates, working size within gaskets boundaries is 8.5" by 10.5". 8 stacks divided into 2 blocks with 7N:
1 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
2 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+

My plates total is 66 that is 33 plates on each side. My Alternator feeds 14.2VDC to the cells. That means 1.77V. My KOH is 21% running at 60 AMP. Gives out around 4LPM.

I cannot believe, if I calculate correctly, that I can load my cell up to 1000 AMP? What are these calculations are coming from?

I think right AMP load is a balance between the total amperage drawing on the cell + your feed wires gauge without overheating over safe to touch temperature + stable optimat temperature of the cell + HHO production with minimal heat + and many more factors!

MMV @ 100% efficiency promises you 1LPM for each 10 AMP drawn @ 13.2VDC. That means that theoretically a cell that runs safely without blowing fuses, melting power wires and sending no steam into the engine is gonna produce no more than 1 LPM for each 10 AMPs.

Most cells produce 1 LPM for every 18-25 AMP and that means big flaws in the cell design, electrolyte mixture (i.e. quality), electrolyte circulation, etc.

[myoldyourgold]

That is freaking stupid!
I do have 10" by 12" plates, working size within gaskets boundaries is 8.5" by 10.5". 8 stacks divided into 2 blocks with 7N:
1 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+
2 BLOCK: +NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+NNNNNNN-NNNNNNN+

My plates total is 66 that is 33 plates on each side. My Alternator feeds 14.2VDC to the cells. That means 1.77V. My KOH is 21% running at 60 AMP. Gives out around 4LPM.

I cannot believe, if I calculate correctly, that I can load my cell up to 1000 AMP? What are these calculations are coming from?

I think right AMP load is a balance between the total amperage drawing on the cell + your feed wires gauge without overheating over safe to touch temperature + stable optimat temperature of the cell + HHO production with minimal heat + and many more factors!

MMV @ 100% efficiency promises you 1LPM for each 10 AMP drawn @ 13.2VDC. That means that theoretically a cell that runs safely without blowing fuses, melting power wires and sending no steam into the engine is gonna produce no more than 1 LPM for each 10 AMPs.

Most cells produce 1 LPM for every 18-25 AMP and that means big flaws in the cell design, electrolyte mixture (i.e. quality), electrolyte circulation, etc.

Now what you have said is very good. Let me just add to it. In your case you are running 8 series cells, in 6 series stacks, in 2 separate reactors in parallel. This means that you are running 1.775 volts per cell and 10 amps per stack. Your 4lpm is OK for your setup but you can can do better and Bio has given you one of the clues in a different thread. What configuration are your input and exit ports? Are your ports insulated? This will help determine how efficient your set up is. I think you have some room to make more gas with a few changes. Looks and sounds like you have an excellent build.

I run 25 6 X 6 plates 8 series cells, 3 series stacks and at 13.8 volts, 28 amps and produce over 1 liter per 10 amps. Now that is only 9.33 amps per stack. OK I finally said it. To do this though everything has to be just right and not in a car. I am saying everything!!! This includes ambient temperature. So because conditions very in the real world 1 liter per 10 amps is very good and hard to average. There is still more room for improvement, in my case at least, and I am continually working on it. Now it is much more important to know how to use what you make to get any useful benefit out of the HHO. Even an inefficient reactor/plate design can produce useful gains if everything else is right both in cleaner exhaust and mileage. Remember I can not prove any of this or refuse too. LOL

[lhazleton]

LOL>> I just read this & you're right......it is stupid.
Voltage has nothing to do with active plate area. The general rule of thumb is to not exceed .5 amps per sq. in. of active area to prevent plate degradation.
With an active surface area of 89.25 sq. in., 44.625 amps. would be the sweet spot.

[borescopeit]

Now what you have said is very good. Let me just add to it. In your case you are running 8 series cells, in 6 series stacks, in 2 separate reactors in parallel. This means that you are running 1.775 volts per cell and 10 amps per stack. Your 4lpm is OK for your setup but you can can do better and Bio has given you one of the clues in a different thread. What configuration are your input and exit ports? Are your ports insulated? This will help determine how efficient your set up is. I think you have some room to make more gas with a few changes. Looks and sounds like you have an excellent build.

I run 25 6 X 6 plates 8 series cells, 3 series stacks and at 13.8 volts, 28 amps and produce over 1 liter per 10 amps. Now that is only 9.33 amps per stack. OK I finally said it. To do this though everything has to be just right and not in a car. I am saying everything!!! This includes ambient temperature. So because conditions very in the real world 1 liter per 10 amps is very good and hard to average. There is still more room for improvement, in my case at least, and I am continually working on it. Now it is much more important to know how to use what you make to get any useful benefit out of the HHO. Even an inefficient reactor/plate design can produce useful gains if everything else is right both in cleaner exhaust and mileage. Remember I can not prove any of this or refuse too. LOL

Thank you for your sweet comment on what I said. I am still working on the cell to lower AMP per LPM output and hope to get to 10LPM @ 100 AMP load since alternator is 220AMP in my semi truck.

I already know of some weak spots in my electrical connections - mains feed wires. I have dual #8 OFC on both positive and negative. Also, I designed my own plates with terminals in both directions, thus I am attaching the electrical source to bath opposite ends of the plates. This minimizes voltage drop across the SS material, cause the SS has to much of resistance in it.

What I am planning to add is continuous duty water pump rated at 3GPM - that will assure the cell always gets needed amount of electrolyte flow through it.

Also, I installed DuPont filter on gas output line to the bubbler in order to constantly filter electrolyte. Main reason for that - yellow metal fittings oxidize like crazy and the oxidized metal particles start gathering inside the cell forming short circuit sport thus destroying the plates in those places.

Big benefit of this mid filter is in 99% foam suppression. The cartridge is 20 micron rolled fabric string (bought it in Menards). Other cartridges do the opposite.

Secondly, I do have two more filters after bubbler - first one is wet, second one 5 micron dry.

I am programming my own control unit under .NET Microframework to take care of temperature control, bar pressure, amps, etc.

Another thing I will add soon is 35 Farad Electrolitic BOSS Capacitor before MOSFETS in my PWM. This will ensure constant readiness of AMPs needed for the cell to perform its job.

Anything more? Probably... I already put around $2,800 into my Dry Cell project.

As to the electrolyte ratio, I do use KOH at 21% but will bring it up to 28% when my Hazmat shipment arrives.

P.S. As to my test environment - no work bench, just real 12L diesel truck always on the go.

Please see attached pics.

[myoldyourgold]

Lee here is something to think about in regards to Voltage and amps. If you control your amperage with electrolyte concentration and have a constant 13.8 volts but now you very the active surface area of the plate.... What happens to the voltage and amperage and why?

[borescopeit]

The general rule of thumb is to not exceed .5 amps per sq. in. of active area to prevent plate degradation.
With an active surface area of 89.25 sq. in., 44.625 amps. would be the sweet spot.

Oh, sh*t, my cell is too big then! According to the calculations it is capable of 44.625 amps * 8 stacks = 357 amps load where theoretically I can get 24-35 LPM! But where can I get so many amps?

I am thinking of buying 8KW diesel generator to produce those 357 amps!

[borescopeit]

Lee here is something to think about in regards to Voltage and amps. If you control your amperage with electrolyte concentration and have a constant 13.8 volts but now you very the active surface area of the plate.... What happens to the voltage and amperage and why?

When your voltage is high your amps are low. When you decrease resistance of the circuit (cell electrolyte) you raise amps drawn and drop voltage. That is Ohm's law.

In order to preserve your voltage to the cell you must eliminate any resistive connections, etc.:

1. Increase your feed wire gauge (lets say from #4 up to #1 OFC).
2. Shorten all your wires as much as possible.
3. Make sure your wires are close to cold temp because if you are losing heat through your circuits instead of the cell plates - you rob your cell of additional amps. Theoretically ideal electrical design will transfer 90% of the volts/amps. Bad connections will cut your production a big time.
4. Use less of not soldered connections, because with any additional wires cut you add more resistance.
5. Measure conductivity of your circuit from alternator to the cell plates. If it has higher Ohm (i.e. 1.2 MOhm) than your cell (i.e. 1.0 MOhm) - your failed somewhere.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you for your sweet comment on what I said. I am still working on the cell to lower AMP per LPM output and hope to get to 10LPM @ 100 AMP load since alternator is 220AMP in my semi truck.

I already know of some weak spots in my electrical connections - mains feed wires. I have dual #8 OFC on both positive and negative. Also, I designed my own plates with terminals in both directions, thus I am attaching the electrical source to bath opposite ends of the plates. This minimizes voltage drop across the SS material, cause the SS has to much of resistance in it.

What I am planning to add is continuous duty water pump rated at 3GPM - that will assure the cell always gets needed amount of electrolyte flow through it.

Also, I installed DuPont filter on gas output line to the bubbler in order to constantly filter electrolyte. Main reason for that - yellow metal fittings oxidize like crazy and the oxidized metal particles start gathering inside the cell forming short circuit sport thus destroying the plates in those places.

Big benefit of this mid filter is in 99% foam suppression. The cartridge is 20 micron rolled fabric string (bought it in Menards). Other cartridges do the opposite.

Secondly, I do have two more filters after bubbler - first one is wet, second one 5 micron dry.

I am programming my own control unit under .NET Microframework to take care of temperature control, bar pressure, amps, etc.

Another thing I will add soon is 35 Farad Electrolitic BOSS Capacitor before MOSFETS in my PWM. This will ensure constant readiness of AMPs needed for the cell to perform its job.

Anything more? Probably... I already put around $2,800 into my Dry Cell project.

As to the electrolyte ratio, I do use KOH at 21% but will bring it up to 28% when my Hazmat shipment arrives.

P.S. As to my test environment - no work bench, just real 12L diesel truck always on the go.

That is one sweet setup. Thank you for the great pictures. I tend to do better with pictures. LOL I am impressed to see that you have springs on the the build. I went to that to prevent loosing too. I have found that adding a stiffener around the edge where the bolts also makes a much tighter build and aids in the loosing problem. I have seen some great stiffeners made out of stainless but mine are just mild steal and powder coated.

In my experience I have gotten much better numbers by not using a pump and separating the units into smaller units. With such a large number of plates cooling needs more flow and that is why you need a pump. The down side of that is that this creates a steady flow of electrolyte out the output ports and increases current leakage. When the flow is broken up with gas which has a high resistance and less liquid it tends to slow this down and current goes where it should because it is easier. The balance is critical and so port size and location come into play in a big way. If you are not insulating your ports with Weldon 16, you need to study up on that. You will see measurable differences.

Are your plates media blasted? If not this will also give you another boost.
Duel connections are good. One more question, how long have you run the reactor and what kind of results are you getting? Keep it up. Great job.