Wet Cells and Current Leakage

[Farrahday]

While there would seem to be definite efficiency benefits of what is known as a Dry Cell when compared to that of a Wet Cell, it makes very little sense that this has anything whatsoever to do with current ‘leakage’.

I know that in this area of science and research, things often get said on a whim, without anything by way of substantiated proof, and then get picked upon by others and spread like the common cold. Eventually the original source is lost in the annals of time, and what was originally and idle, perhaps even thoughtless remark, can become accepted by many as a truth, a given, and indeed science fact, when in reality it is nothing of the sort.

Current leakage is one such thing that, if given some thought, makes no sense at all. It is said that Dry Cells are more efficient than Wet Cells, because they do not allow current to bypass the electrodes. But, think about it for a minute - this is never going to happen anyway.

Consider this. Two electrodes in a jar of water, a cathode and an anode. We apply a voltage of 12 volts across these electrodes and we get the cations in the water heading off to the cathode and the anions heading off towards the anode. Both only move because they are repelled from one electrode and attracted to the other electrode. No charged species is going to go off on a merry tour of the surroundings!

Now if we add a floating plate between the cathode and the anode, this floating plate will see a pd of 6 volts, and will be relatively more negative one side than the other side. Again the cations and anions within the water will be repelled by the like charged electrodes and attracted to the unlike charged electrodes. But, and here’s the thing, there is never any reason for the charge carriers to bypass electrodes. After all, why would they? They are being effectively pushed away from one electrode and pulled toward another. They will take the shortest route from one electrode to another. It makes no sense whatsoever that ionic current would circumnavigate around a charged electrode!

So if Dry Cells are indeed more efficient than Wet Cells, then there must be another explanation and perhaps this demands further investigation.

[jdcproducts]

I am just starting to experiment with HHO but the idea of "current" leakage with a wet cell to me means the following....

In a wet cell all "edges" of the plate are exposed to the electrolyte. From what I understand electrons try to flow to the path of least resistance, so they are all going to gather at the outer edges of the plate because its much easier to get to where they wanna be, in turn possibly causing a loss in hho production. I think of it like a pan with no lip to keep the "stew" from spilling out. Your not going to be very efficient making the stew if the ingredients needed to make it keeps spilling over the sides.

In a dry cell you have completely eliminated the outer edge of the cell from being exposed to the charged electrolyte solution. The reaction inside the cell is much more "focused" if you will because of that.

I do not know if their is any logic to that but it makes sense to me. Although I'm sure if you were to coat the outer edges of the plates in some sort of rubber or non conducting material, this would be the same thing as a dry cell.

I will be testing this theory in the months to come to see if their is any relevance to "current leakage". Good post and way to think outside the box.....

[Farrahday]

In a wet cell all "edges" of the plate are exposed to the electrolyte. From what I understand electrons try to flow to the path of least resistance, so they are all going to gather at the outer edges of the plate because its much easier to get to where they wanna be, in turn possibly causing a loss in hho production. I think of it like a pan with no lip to keep the "stew" from spilling out. Your not going to be very efficient making the stew if the ingredients needed to make it keeps spilling over the sides.

Don't really understand what your getting at here. Why would electrons gather at the edges of a plate? Why do you say there is less resistance at the edges of the plates? How is that easier for them to get where they wanna be?

Nevertheless, as I mentioned, from everything I've gleaned there does seem to be some tangible benefit from these dry cells in terms of efficiency, though I've never made a dry cell myself.

I just feel that current leakage is a wrong analysis and hence a wrong term, and that something else is occurring. I mean, current can't actually leak out of the electrolyser, and charges are only attracted and repelled from the charged plates, so they have no reason to take other than a direct path. It's not the same as your stew boiling over as nothing is lost or escapes the confines of the electrolyser.

I've seen people liken it to leaky capacitors in the past, but of course this is utter drivell as a leaky capacitor simply allows the charges to pass through the dielectric from one plate to another, which is effectively exactly what we want to happen in our electrolysers.

Very interesting, and not sure what it comes down to, but current leakage certainly would not be near the top of my list!

[Roland Jacques]

Farrah, you bring up a interesting point.

The way i understand current will seek the path of least resistant. So Some current leap frogs the some neutral plates in a wet cell. I suppose that the weaker concentration of Dope / electrolyte would result in a little less "leakage" (or bypassing). Or maybe less resistant neutral plate the same would be true. i believe it just means the current see less plate surface. What do you think ?

On a side note, i just found some of your research and posts. You are a awesome person to follow you. I really look forward to your conclusion on Mookie's exciter cell. It would be nice to see how good of a quality of gas it produces.

Ps. Your insight on the two different reasons for conditioning plates, explains a lot to me and makes a lot of sense. Maybe you could share that here or allow me to copy and paste what you side about it.

[Farrahday]

Hi Roland, feel free to copy and post anything of mine you feel relevant - I won't be filing copyright lawsuits, I'm strictly open-source.

I have a work bench that I can moderate over on OverUnityResearch, so it's better for me to post my findings there as I can keep it uncluttered.

Farrah, you bring up a interesting point.

The way i understand current will seek the path of least resistant. So Some current leap frogs the some neutral plates in a wet cell. I suppose that the weaker concentration of Dope / electrolyte would result in a little less "leakage" (or bypassing). Or maybe less resistant neutral plate the same would be true. i believe it just means the current see less plate surface. What do you think ?

I think a big problem is what people term as 'neutral plates'. Of course, they are not neutral in any way. I prefer the term floating plates as this best describes them and does not infer that they do not see a pd - which they do. I hate the term 'neutral plates', but like the term HHO (which is also rather annoying AND incorrect), on these forums, it seems to have become the generally accepted and indeed the most commonly used term.

So, as these floating plates see a potential difference, the path of least resistance is from one plate to another, not around them!

Stick a floating plate in between a cathode and an anode at 12v pd, and the floating plate sees a 6 volt pd with respect from both the cathode and the anode. Any charge carriers have no reason to bypass this floating plate as they will be attracted or repelled by the pd on this plate. And the path of least resistance is the most direct path to the first plate that shows a pd and so attracts and repels.

[myoldyourgold]

I guess my electronic skills are lacking. I am more mechanical and know enough about electricity to sometimes be dangerous. Well not that bad maybe LOL. If you have 3 plates. Example: Plate 1 connected and plate 2 floating and plate 3 connected to a 12v power supply and if you measure voltage across 1 and 3 you see 12 volts. If you measure 1 and 2 you see 6 volts and the same for 2 and 3 the same. I take it that the pull/push of the two end plates is not greater but equal to the 6 volts read on 1,2 and 2,3. The distance between the facing plates makes it such that the current will travel to the the closest plate 1 to 2 and 2 to 3, off the face of the plates, but the edges charge the electrolyte and cause some current to go directly to the end plate through the conductor (charged electrolyte). I have read and have somewhere in my piling system some technical papers that when I put my hands on them I will post them. They will give you a much better scientific explanation of how this works. Just do not hold you breath. I am out of station or home base at the moment.

[Roland Jacques]

Hi Roland, feel free to copy and post anything of mine you feel relevant - I won't be filing copyright lawsuits, I'm strictly open-source.

Ahh, now i can't find the post. The info you shared on conditioning plates. The TWO reasons to do it, I thought where very valuable to many folks. It seems to be very overlooked and ignored by most of us. That post of yours made it clear to me that it is time will spent. I will be doing both types of conditioning you mentioned in the future . The Calcification build up by Dave Lawton was new to me.

Do you know where you mention it? I really think folks here would benefit from it.