New To HHO. Got Questions About Plate Material and Electrolytes

[charliebrumfield]

so i'm new to hho. well i say new. i've never built a reactor but i've been reading and lurking different forums since around '08. now i think i'm comfortable enough with the technology and that reactors are now just on the edge of becoming efficient enough to offer some real benefits in the automotive world in addition to making some really cool torches. which are much safer than having bottle of explosive/toxic gas hanging around in the garage. (oxy acetylene, i'm looking at you)

but before i get to my questions. let me give you a little background. i run an internet based automotive enthusiast show called burnout radio. last week one of our listeners wrote in and asked us to talk about the use of hydrogen as a fuel source. which got me thinking about hho or hydroxy reactors. i think they are a crucial stepping stone to fully hydrogen powered cars, be they ICE engines burning straight hydrogen or some kind of fuel cell car. hydrogen is the perfect fuel and electrolysis is the best way i can think of to make that fuel viable.

so my goal is two part. first we are going to build a test reactor which will be turned in to a hydrogen torch as a proof of concept. second we will either be buying or building a reactor to install on our 1991 Mazda Miata project car. we are currently filming a resto/mod series of episodes for a new show we are airing called car care 101. so we think it would be a perfect fit to try and edge out a few more mpg's during the build process.

both of our shows are aimed at the main stream automotive enthusiast, not your stereotypical alternative fuels junkie, so it will be interesting to see what they have to say about a technology that has long been plagued by people trying to sell miracle "run your car on water" kits and has earned a snake oil reputation as a result. we will be publishing all our results on the show. as well as a fully documented build diary. so we'll see what if any gains can be made by todays more efficient dry cell reactors.

ok now that's out of the way. lets get to the questions at hand.

1: Plate Materials
2: Electrolyte

What materials make the best plates to use in the reactor? From what i've gathered Stainless Steel of the 316L variety is the most popular but it can release hexavalent chromium. So now Titanium is being touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread. and then i keep hearing grumblings about nickel plates, but i have yet to find someone who has actually used them. So cost aside (no platinum is not in my budget, we are building a miata not a ferrari after all.) which plates should i use to build the test reactor? Which ones are going to last the longest, and produce the best results? (i.e. the most efficient)

Electrolytes can be some down right nasty stuff. But it seems everyone has settle on using either KOH or NaOH. as their electolyte of choice. neither of which are that caustic in the grand scheme of things. meaning they won't instantly eat your face if you accidentally spill some. i'm leaning towards KOH as from what i have read is does not discolor the water and it tends to stay in the reactor solution as opposed to out gassing with the HHO. Which is a big plus, as i do not want to be sucking anything in to the intake manifold that could cause chemical reactions with the engine oils or internals.

so that it for now guys. in short my questions are:

which plate material - 316L SS | Ti | Ni
which electolyte - KOH | NaOH

[BioFarmer93]

Media blasted Ni, 28%KOH electrolyte, unipolar configuration

[oicu812]

I totally aggree with Bio. nickel is the way to go with KoH. have the plates cut with a cnc plasma cutter and media blasted to increase surface area. getting custom gaskets made would be great too! the finished cell would be superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. clear acrilyic end plates would be a nice touch.

[charliebrumfield]

Media blasted Ni, 28%KOH electrolyte, unipolar configuration

could you enlighten me on the unipolar configuration. after doing a bit of googling i found this post where you have a couple of drawings and a brief description about unipolar designs. this was the way i had originally decided to wire up my plates until i found everybody and their dog saying you have to use neutral plates or else you'll over drive the cell and boil the electrolyte solution. me myself and i think that the unipolar design would be the way to go. but how do you keep from over heating? just ensure that you only run ~ 2 volts to each plate?

I totally aggree with Bio. nickel is the way to go with KoH. have the plates cut with a cnc plasma cutter and media blasted to increase surface area. getting custom gaskets made would be great too! the finished cell would be superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. clear acrilyic end plates would be a nice touch.

don't know if i'm going to have them cnc cut as that's an added expense that i could use to buy more plates to build a larger reactor. but they will defiantly be media blasted. do you have any recommendation on what media to use when blasting? for gaskets i though i would just make a box out of some sheet metal and use it as a die to puch out the gaskets in the shape i want. think really sharp cookie cutter. not sure on the end plates. acrilyic would look pimp but i think metal end plates would allow me to a fix heat sinks to them for better thermal properties.

[BioFarmer93]

could you enlighten me on the unipolar configuration. after doing a bit of googling i found this post where you have a couple of drawings and a brief description about unipolar designs. this was the way i had originally decided to wire up my plates until i found everybody and their dog saying you have to use neutral plates or else you'll over drive the cell and boil the electrolyte solution. me myself and i think that the unipolar design would be the way to go. but how do you keep from over heating? just ensure that you only run ~ 2 volts to each plate?



don't know if i'm going to have them cnc cut as that's an added expense that i could use to buy more plates to build a larger reactor. but they will defiantly be media blasted. do you have any recommendation on what media to use when blasting? for gaskets i though i would just make a box out of some sheet metal and use it as a die to puch out the gaskets in the shape i want. think really sharp cookie cutter. not sure on the end plates. acrilyic would look pimp but i think metal end plates would allow me to a fix heat sinks to them for better thermal properties.

LOL, Charlie-
I know what you mean! I swam against the tide here myself over the bipolar/unipolar issue for quite a while... Then Zero Fossil Fuel built a unipolar electrolyzer (The Bat Cell) and got real good numbers out of it, which inspired Larry (HHOPWR) to build the Magnetic Beastie, from which he has meticulously documented amazing numbers over and over.
The reason everyone builds bipolar (Tero Ranta) style units is because they're easy and they're what has been popularized with the advent of the internet. The unipolar style is a much older design that I remembered from from some reading over twenty years ago and what I based my build on. It stirred interest because it is so different from what others are doing.
Any way, the heat issue is a non-issue with the unipolar design when built correctly. I think Larry (HHOPWR) may have pushed his up around 100A now and struggled to get up to 110F after several hours running, I have pushed mine at 145A on a 4hr. road trip and never got more than slightly warm to the touch on the plate edges. I believe the reason is that there is inherently less resistance in the configuration of plates, and usually more plates than in most bipolar designs. Now the cons- To get the voltage down to around 2V per group, you'll need to build a seven group unit. Sounds huge, but it's not that bad if you go with six or seven plates per group and 3/4" HDPE for end and divider plates- that way you can drill and tap the plate edges to meet perpendicularly drilled holes in the HDPE plate faces for water in and gas out paths at different places on the same piece. That way you don't have to build individual units like I did. This was Larry's idea and it turned out beautifully.

[charliebrumfield]

@biofarmer - do you happen to know of a good diagram showing how to drill and tap the plates/hpde? you kind of lost me with your description and i can't seem to locate anything.

so the trick to keeping the heat down is to run 7 groups runing 6 or 7 plates each right? probably going to have to run tiny ass plates to make it all fit. there's not much room in the miata...

so each group should look like this if you're running 6 plates

+-+-+-|-+-+-+|+-+-+-|-+-+-+|+-+-+-|-+-+-+|+-+-+-

and 7 plates would look like this?

+-+-+-+|-+-+-+-|+-+-+-+|-+-+-+-|+-+-+-+|-+-+-+-|+-+-+-+

+ = positive
- = negative
| = group

if i'm going to have to run that many groups. i'm thinking plate size will need to be around 4"x3" to fit in the space i have to work with on the miata. would a reactor that size still be able to put out 1.5 - 2 lmp @ ~25 amps?

[charliebrumfield]

ok so nickel is turning out to be a biach to find. only located on store today that sold nickel and they want my first born son as a down payment. i was able to find some uncoated Ti pretty cheep, so i may go that route if i can't find nickel for a reasonable price. $129.95 for a 1/8"x12"x12" is ludicrous. or i may try graphite. i've seen a few videos today where folks have been having good success with is. but they were all atleast a year old. has anyone had any luck with graphite or is it a dead end? i wasn't able to find many posts on the forums about it.

[BioFarmer93]

Charlie,
Search for Nickel200. Plates only need to be .025"-.03" thick. Look for rolls of shim stock, probably already at a usable width. Titanium is a waste of money- high resistance. You have the concept down correctly on both of the layouts (6 &7 plate). I'll whip up a quick and dirty sketch on the divider plates, easier than try to explain... OK, maybe this will help- I had it laying around for something else and just added the elbows for clarity.

[charliebrumfield]

max width i can find nickel shim stock is in .010. seems might thin to me. 1/100th of an inch? talk about paper thin... do you possibly remember where you found nickel shim stock over .020?

[charliebrumfield]

ok i get how the elbows are drilled and tapped now. you are basically drilling 1/2 way through the hpde and then coming in at a 90 degree angle with the hole for the pipe elbow.