2 small units vs 1 large for Diesel.

[Oshawapilot]

Hey Mark,
The amount of propane being injected to enhance performance (6-8%) is huge in comparison to the amount of HHO you can possibly make & inject (<1%) to enhance efficiency.

Ok, thanks.

I'm still leaning towards HHO (and honestly, am still intrigued by it) at this point, not to mention the reality that a propane system has a recurring bill to keep the propane tank full, whereas the HHO system does not have such.

All that said, a big road block for me at the moment with the HHO is the upfront cost. If I could get the cost down to the $400 range I could make it happen, but I have a figure of about $600 to $700 in my head right now by the time I'm done with everything including incidentals, and that's what has put the brakes on for me right now.

Unfortunately almost all of our tax return was spoken for with other commitments, and some of that money was what I had hoped to put towards this project.

I know we took the "go big or go home" approach with the plans so far and I anticipated that wouldn't be a problem at the time, but now, unfortunately, it is.

So, I'm at a crossroad, and I need to sleep on things for a bit.

[BioFarmer93]

The GM 6.5TD does have a pre-combustion chamber,so we will probably have to be carefull with making HHO during the starting glow plug cycle.

OK, I wasn't sure if it did or not and I didn't take the time to look it up- now I know. As for HHO at start-up, not a good idea, just ask Lee. Wait till the old girl's rattling good before flipping the switch. To be fair, Lee's little snafu was from leftover, not initial gas. It's a good argument for turning the system off a couple minutes before shutting down, rather than at shutdown.

[myoldyourgold]

In my Mercedes diesel (now on vacation LOL) I used a voltage switch so it does not come on until the engine is running and the switch sees at least 14 volts. The new alternator I put on a couple of years ago puts out 14.2 at idle with everything on. That messed up my turning off at idle setup. I had to instal a RPM switch to control the off at idle so really didn't need the voltage switch any more. With low volumes of HHO there was no problem with the heaters igniting the HHO. It was to diluted I am assuming but when I increased the volume of HHO I did not take the chance and started using the voltage switch and later the RPM switch.

[racer55]

For what it's worth I called BIll Heath @ Heath Diesel (the foremost authority on these engines)this mourning and had a long conversation about the GM 6.5TD.

I called to enquire about a propane kit they offered at one time and although it worked well it was discontinued because people would circumvent the safety features that were built in and damage thier engines-then blame the kit,that and when set up properly the fuel savings were offset by propane costs.Power boost was good though.

His experience and advice was to stay far away from propane and HHO-any fuel source introduced pre-combustion chamber is harmfull.
These engines were not designed to survive the pre-ignition that can be involved under certain conditions.

The advice given was to go only with water injection-you get cooler egt's and the combustion temperature of 3000+ degrees actually creats HHO in the cylinder not unlike the way nitrous oxide works.

His kit was designed to use tap water at a flow rate equal to the fuel consumption.60 gallon fuel tank-60gallon water tank.

That is much higher than other kits propose using but the R+D done proved it the best soloution and beyond cooler EGT's adds 1-3 mpg on average depending on the load.

Bill even put the kybosch on the after cooler I intended to install.Air flow restriction that is preset on the heat exchanger is detrimental for these engines.

So I guess the point is that these 6.5TD's can generate HHO internally and that is the safest way to do it.Economical too!

[myoldyourgold]

For what it's worth I called BIll Heath @ Heath Diesel (the foremost authority on these engines)this mourning and had a long conversation about the GM 6.5TD.

I called to enquire about a propane kit they offered at one time and although it worked well it was discontinued because people would circumvent the safety features that were built in and damage thier engines-then blame the kit,that and when set up properly the fuel savings were offset by propane costs.Power boost was good though.

His experience and advice was to stay far away from propane and HHO-any fuel source introduced pre-combustion chamber is harmfull.
These engines were not designed to survive the pre-ignition that can be involved under certain conditions.

The advice given was to go only with water injection-you get cooler egt's and the combustion temperature of 3000+ degrees actually creats HHO in the cylinder not unlike the way nitrous oxide works.

His kit was designed to use tap water at a flow rate equal to the fuel consumption.60 gallon fuel tank-60gallon water tank.

That is much higher than other kits propose using but the R+D done proved it the best soloution and beyond cooler EGT's adds 1-3 mpg on average depending on the load.

Bill even put the kybosch on the after cooler I intended to install.Air flow restriction that is preset on the heat exchanger is detrimental for these engines.

So I guess the point is that these 6.5TD's can generate HHO internally and that is the safest way to do it.Economical too!

Racer55, Bill is absolutely right and this is why I keep saying on some engines there is a real limit as to how much HHO you can inject. Engines with pre-combustion champers have a definite limit and by adding water and other things helps dilute/slow down the HHO so you can add more and thus get higher returns. It is a tuning process and a real balancing act and more complicated if that is possible LOL. All diesels make some HHO with water injection but it is very little at least the way I see it.

Most people are looking for more than just 1-3 miles increase in their mileage when prices are over $5 per gallon.

[racer55]

I agree completely with you,and with Bill.

The balancing act is the part that makes me shy away from the HHO project at this time on my engine.
I am not in a position to make the investment and then go too far-as is the common problem when there is a power gain as well.

Some is good,more must be better right?Like the propane kit Bill offered.

Bills sentiment that the 6.5TD is nowhere near robust enough to get it wrong,even for a short time makes me inclined to live with the smaller return on mileage with WMI(still need to talk more about the alcohol/methanol aspect).

I really appreciate the effort and education you folks have provided in this thread and will very likely pursue the project when I do grenade my engine and do a 12 valve cummins swap down the road.
The cummins can handle the HHO much better.

Thank you again untill I revisit this project at a later date.

[b1jetmech]

Hi everyone,

Been a while since I posted but I don't want to sound like I'm hijacking this thread.

I just got done with 6.5 conversion to my 94' Suburban(which was a 350 engine) The mileage gains were noticeable right away. 11mpg with the 350 to 21 with the 6.5.

Now I want to go further by installing a hydrogen generator puts out 3LPM.

I just caught up with the reading of using HHO on an IDI diesel on this thread and I want to add that I had good luck with an old 7.3 IDI Ford with HHO. However I sold the truck off right away, It ran much quieter and very smoooooth....

Now that I have a chevy 6.5 I'm hoping for some gains as well.

I believe if there is any negative cause-and-effect on using HHO in an IDI diesel it might be due to the fact Diesel is a slower burning fuel when HHO is fast burn. Gasoline is faster burning and has good results with HHO (OBD1 computer of course) but if there is an issue that arises with using HHO on an IDI diesel then adjustments do have to be made.

For instance retarding timing on a diesel so it may fire later preventing pre-ignition (if it happens) problem is the risk of hard starts.

Another that you all touched on is turning the fuel down. I need to turn the fuel up on mine because it is seriously lacking...lack of any smoke proves it

So when I get mine done I let everyone know right away what kind of results(if any). But really I'm optimistic about this.

Chase

[racer55]

No smoke from a 6.5 is a good thing,they do not respond well to smoke-it's unburned fuel and will melt a 6.5 down in very short order.

Unless changed to a mechanical IP your 94 will have an electronic Ip so turning it up is not an option-a reprogrammed chip in the ECM is required to change the fuel map,timing ect.

Your point about retarding the timing on a diesel has me confused,if HHO is fast burning and diesel is slow burning how would injecting later help with pre-ignition?
A later timing event would add the slow burning fuel even later in the power stroke and make the diesel burn later as well as increase engine heat?

Would the HHO not ignite at the same time regardless of injection timing if it was being fired by compression heat alone.

Water injection as a supplement might help reduce pre-ignition by cooling the air charge and delaying the rise in cylinder temps during compression?

[Oshawapilot]

Another that you all touched on is turning the fuel down. I need to turn the fuel up on mine because it is seriously lacking...lack of any smoke proves it

A properly running diesel engine should not smoke.

Smoke is unburned fuel. If you're trying to increase your fuel mileage, and then dumping all sorts of black smoke out the back end, you might as well be pouring diesel on the ground next to the tailpipe. It's very counterproductive to what you're trying to accomplish here. NO smoke = best fuel mileage.

That aside, black smoke on a 6.5 is a recipe for disaster. They do NOT handle it well.

You may want to read my FAQ on the matter at my other home, DieselPlace. You can the thread specifically here:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=389251

Anyhow, I wanted to come back and touch base in this thread as well. As Racer mentioned, based on what has come to light, we have decided to put the brakes on this project.

The 6.5 is even more susceptible to rapid and extreme damage to detonation than I had even initially realized, and upon a lot of digging I was able to find a few stories of people who grenaded their 6.5's by using HHO. Those who did have "success" with it were noticing marginal MPG increases at best due directly to the fact that they had to turn the HHO system down so drastically to reduce detonation/pinging that it was loosing it's ability to be effective.

Unfortuately, I'm not willing to risk my engine, now knowing that it and HHO (and propane) can be a bad combination, for a MPG increase. It would be very easy to get upside down from a financial standpoint really quick if something blows up.

I'd like to say THANKS THANKS THANKS for everything we've shared here so far. I promise you when the day arrives that I move up to a Duramax I will be back to continue this project. Apparently HHO and the Duramax are indeed a match made in heaven.

[Oshawapilot]

No smoke from a 6.5 is a good thing,they do not respond well to smoke-it's unburned fuel and will melt a 6.5 down in very short order.

Looks like we were replying at the same time, Steve.