2 small units vs 1 large for Diesel.

[lhazleton]

Hope you can get everything you need locally. I know from other guys in Canada that shipping charges are incredible!

[Oshawapilot]

Ok, here's what I gathered. Local metal supplier that's actually a customer of mine, so handy.

10 plates 316SS, 3x11" (seems narrow, but thats what Koya mentioned?), .062 (1/16th) would be $5 per plate. They added $10 to fab 4 out of those 10 with a 1x1 tab for the electrical connections. Total investment $60.

I did get quotes on thicker 316 - 1/8th plate would increase the cost to $10/plate though.

What's the best option for the thickness assuming 316SS?

For the end plates I looked at UHMW polyethylene, 1" thick 4x12" ( leaving a 1" overlap for bolting) would run $15 each, so another $60 total there assuming a 2 unit build.

Reducing to 3/4" reduced the price to $10/end. Down to 1/2", further reduction to $6.00 each.

Again, for the end plates, is the UHMW suitable, and what's best for thickness? I've heard a lot of complaints from those who cheaper out and couldn't get good clamping forces as a result of too thin end plates, so I'd like advice here.

Thoughts so far?

I have not yet sourced gasket material but know of the perfect supplier - another one of my customers as well. What material is "ideal" for the gaskets, and what is on the "it'll do" side?

Thanks again all.

[BioFarmer93]

Mark,
Well, now comes the time for some choices... First though, you can save some money by going to .04" on the 316L. Don't talk about connection tabs yet with your supplier because you're going to want two per plate. Are these going to be waterjet cut? I realize you want to move on this thing but there are several loose ends that must be attended to first, such as-
Are you going to build unipolar or bipolar?
Are you going to control the amperage or just use an on-off switch to a solenoid?
Are you still committed to a high output system, or is the sticker shock down-sizing it for you?
Have you made allowances for balance-of-system costs? (elbows, tubing, wire, gaskets,solenoid, switches, fuses, nuts, bolts, zip ties, hose clamps, electrical connectors, etc..?

Note to LEE-
If he goes unipolar I'm going to design a mini-beastie for him since that style makes the most efficient use of space & materials... At 60A max, I'm thinkin' about 480-500 sq. in.. What do you get?

[myoldyourgold]

Mark, you have some of the best giving you advise. I will add my 2 cents as well remember it's only 2 cents.

Plate thickness depends on your reactor design. If you go with an all unipolar design like Bio's then .050 (18 gauge) for all the plates is what I would recommend. If you are going to have a combination of unipolar plates and bipolar plates then I would suggest the bipolar plates be .0375 (20 gauge). The .062 is 16 gauge and is way to thick in my opinion. I see no benefit in using the thicker material.

Plate shape is something you might want to do some more research on. Both Boi and Koya use a similar design. I have had better luck with keeping the distance the bubbles have to travel small and think that 4 X 8 where the bubbles are traveling up only 4 inches is one of the best designs. This is somewhat splitting hairs but is backed up with simple science and some testing. The difference is small but there is a difference.

Make sure you go with media blasted plates. In tests I just completed this week you can hit these plates with a lot more voltage and amps with no significant increase in heat. I suspect this will apply to any well designed plate. I will be doing a lot more testing to see what happens long term.

You have done a good job of research. Keep it up.

[lhazleton]

Good to see ya, Carter. Where've you been?

[Oshawapilot]

First though, you can save some money by going to .04" on the 316L. Don't talk about connection tabs yet with your supplier because you're going to want two per plate. Are these going to be waterjet cut?

OK, I'm getting overwhelmed again.

If .04 is adequate, I'll go with that. The supplier I looked at this morning only had .025 and .062 in stock, so the .04 would probably be special order. If they need to source an entire sheet just to make my one project it *could* drive the price up for me, not sure.

I'm assuming that there is an "optimum" thickness? Is the .062 ultimately too thick?

I realize you want to move on this thing but there are several loose ends that must be attended to first, such as-
Are you going to build unipolar or bipolar?

Not sure. I was basing my thoughts so far on what Koya mentioned:

-NNNNN+

As I interpret it, that's a negative plate on the one end, 5 neutral plates in the middle, and one positive plate on the other end. Correct? This is what I was basing my request for only 4 plates with the tabbed connection points from the supplier.

The actual dimensions of the plates, layout, and hookup is still a big enigma to me. Koya mentions 3"x11" plates, and others 4X10, 5X9, etc.

Are you going to control the amperage or just use an on-off switch to a solenoid?

On/off with a solenoid was my plan. Reasoning is that I already HAVE all of that under the hood pre-wired to a switch on my dash - it's intended use is a winter glowplug override that lets me cycle my glowplugs for an extended period before cranking in extreme cold.

During the summer I will NOT need this system (the stock glowplug cycle is long enough) so I can simply disconnect the lead going to the glow plug relay and use the relay for the HHO system. The relay is capable of providing over 100A continually (2ga directly to drivers side battery, and then direct to the relay) so it's ideal for the HHO feed.

As I understand it, once the electrolyte has been mixed properly the amp draw should stabilize and maintain itself, correct? Yes, I will have an ampmeter inline with the feed, but as I understand it I shouldn't need an amp controller with a well build dry cell and properly mixed electrolyte. Correct?

Are you still committed to a high output system, or is the sticker shock down-sizing it for you?

Well, I'd like to size the system so that it fits within the ability of my electrical system at the moment. Based on what I've gathered I should be able to do a 6LPM build with 2 separate cells and be in the 60 Amp range. Correct?

If I'm pleased with the results, I can always construct a third cell and simply add it to the system at a later date.

If my results are good I have a friend (Who is apt to join here and chime in soon) who is also very interested in this and we may end up building a kit for him as well, so at that point we could build a third (or fourth, who knows) for me at that point.

With a 6LPM system will I be satisfied?

I'm not suffering from "sticker shock" per say, but there IS a point where if I have to get into replacing alternators and spending a metric buttload of cash over and above beyond the construction costs of the HHO generators themselves, the wife approval factor (WAF) will significantly decrease.

Have you made allowances for balance-of-system costs? (elbows, tubing, wire, gaskets,solenoid, switches, fuses, nuts, bolts, zip ties, hose clamps, electrical connectors, etc..?

Non issues. All cheap and readily available locally, already in my garage, or already on the truck.

My last question is still in under-hood versus in-bed location.

If I go with only 2 cells I think I can find spots under the hood to fit the generators and a bubbler without much issue. Under hood would be my preference (at this point) as it means I can avoid running heavy gauge wiring to the bed. To get 60'ish amps that far back (remember I have a crew cab, so we're talking probably 15-20 feet of wire to go from the alternator, under the cab, and up into the bed) I'd have to use probably 4ga. That's gonna run about $40-$50 for the positive run alone, double that if I go with both a positive and negative run to ensure a good ground - not sure I'm confident enough with relying on a frame ground for that sort of amp draw.

So....lets tackle all the above.

[Bhart]

Since you are in the cold north you might want to revise using PVC, and instead use EPDM for your gasket material. PVC doesn't hold up to the extreme cold. My experience is to ground to the battery, I lost a bunch of amps by grounding to the frame.

[Oshawapilot]

Since you are in the cold north you might want to revise using PVC, and instead use EPDM for your gasket material. PVC doesn't hold up to the extreme cold. My experience is to ground to the battery, I lost a bunch of amps by grounding to the frame.

Thank you, noted. The gasket material was one of the big questions I still had - PVC seemed easier to find, but EPDM can be had relatively easily as well, albeit perhaps at a bit higher cost.

So my concerns about the ground wire were well founded. So, running to the bed, and future proofing for the ability to handle 100A (assuming I eventually added a third unit) I'd be looking at upwards of $100 for the cable alone.

Under hood mounting is looking more and more attractive again if it's workable.

[myoldyourgold]

Good to see ya, Carter. Where've you been?

Lee I have been in the lab making sure I did not suffer a senior moment the other day. I didn't for a change LOL.

Well, I'd like to size the system so that it fits within the ability of my electrical system at the moment. Based on what I've gathered I should be able to do a 6LPM build with 2 separate cells and be in the 60 Amp range.

Mark at 60 amps to make 6 lpm is going to require some real doing. I think your expectations are a little high. My guess is you are going to produce 4 to 4.5 lpm at the best. That would give you an MMW around 5.45. 6 lpm would be 7.2 MMW If you can do that you have a very efficient design better than most. You might need larger reactors (more stacks) or a third to achieve your goals of 6 lmp and closer to 80 or 90 amps. I suspect you will not need more than the 4 to 4.5 lpm anyway.
You are headed in the right direction. Keep up the good work.

[Oshawapilot]

Ok, I've been basing my figures based on Biofarmers 8LPM system @ 100 Amps, but yeah, I just did the math (assuming the figures scale correctly) and I see exactly what you're quoting now - 4.8LPM@60A, again, assuming a perfect scaling from the 8LPM@100A Biofarmer is achieving.

As for what I'll be happy with, this seems to be showing differing opinions as well. The "recommended' figures I read in lots of places (before finding the forum here) was the .50 equation (so 3.25LPM for a 6.5L engine), but now I'm hearing differing opinions, with some saying "Go crazy", and others (like yourself) suggesting I'll be happy in the 4.0-4.5LPM range.

Ultimately, we come back to the available amp limits I'l able to work with, though, and I think 60 is about as high as I'm willing to go, leaving a reserve for charging the batteries and running accessories, etc.